To think I am not going to whither away?

[wavecurlnoidea]

Soooo, my BIL tells me today that I am destined to suffer sarcopenia and muscle loss when older because I only eat meat 3 times per week. Even worse, my chosen meat is fish.

i just prefer that, although I do like poultry every now and again. I don’t care about following a diet, it’s how I like to eat. I mix this with lots of whole grains, lentils, beans and dairy. I also like a bit of sugar for treats. I eat tons of veg. But I understand that I need more than that.

His theory is I won’t get enough protein and fish is inferior. And only eating it 3 times a week is encouraging muscle loss.

I am 50 and fairly fit, normal weight and feel ok. Health check recently just fine.

is he or am I the arsehole?

@Birdsongisangry because the evidence base shows a global move to plant based eating is essential to prevent climate catastrophe, and in western countries, the ever growing obesity crisis. I'm not talking about individual experience, there will always be a minority of people who can't operate without animal based food, but structurally things need to change. I can't see it ever happening though because individualist entitlement and corporate gain will always prevail unfortunately.

Lots of people across the globe eat plant based diets because that's all they can afford or for irrational/religious reasons. As I mentioned previously 40% of children in India under the age of 5 - which is often cited as the exemplar of veganism - are stunted from lack of nutrition. I don't have the numbers who are also vegan but it is a common problem among children of parents who are vegan.

I'm calling out middle class western women because that is relevant to this country. Female vegans outnumber male vegans 2 to 1 in the UK alone.
1 in 4 vegans in the UK has an eating disorder and use veganism to mask this.

Young women are far more susceptible to social contagion than young men (also why they vastly outnumber young men when it comes to supporting trans rights).

Women are more likely to suffer from osteoporosis than men, especially those who have eating disorders or are vegan.

Following a balanced vegan diet that adequately compensates for not eating meat requires a lot of planning, time and funds. A lot of people following vegan diets are putting themselves at risk of osteoporosis, brain fog, muscle wasting and more.

The obesity crisis has been caused by sugar not meat.

Anyone truly concerned about climate change should stop all foreign travel, stop driving a car, get rid of their TV, electric shower, fridge, washing machine, dishwasher, laptop, smartphone, Xbox, live in a straw hut, wear hemp clothes, euthanize their pets and get sterilised.

@TheDaysAreGettingLongerAtLast poverty in India is a different issue and of course poverty will impact on health outcomes
Plant based eating is good for humans when they have access to adequate food, and if more humans adopted it a whole raft of illnesses would be reduced.
Plants have calcium too, there are fewer cases of osteoprosis in Japan where dairy is typically not consumed, but tofu is.
Ref muscle wastage, advice for older women is to lift weights. Any protein will build muscle.
Your comment about social contagion I'll ignore because it's toxic.

I think protein needs go up as we age

https://lifestylemedicine.stanford.edu/protein-needs-for-adults-50/

Up to you obviously, but your BIL may not be wrong.

Yes anaemia is extremely prevalent. Some populations eat more dairy etc to compensate. 60% of India is not vegetarian.

If more humans adopted a vegan diet they would have a whole new raft of illnesses. Like most people, I'd rather eat a nice steak than eat plants and then have to do weight-lifting to compensate.

@TheDaysAreGettingLongerAtLast and there we have it. Individual entitlement will obscure any moral discourse or progress.
Eating steak alone won't build muscle. You have to lift the weights whichever protein you put in to power them. With the added delights of increased colorectal cancer risk.
I loved eating steak by the way; it became unconscionable.

Edited for semi-colon, ironically!

The fact that meat production is bad for the environment does not automatically mean that vegan diets will solve the issue. How much of your plant based diet is grown locally and sustainably, and how much is shipped from around the world? Some common vegan products have a disproportionate environmental footprint, nut milks being an obvious one. It isnt as simple as just eating plant based. Eating locally produced food, and eating what's is season, is a key factor and that may well include some meat and fish rather than eating perishable foods flown halfway across the world.

The thing that gets me the most with middle-class vegans is their overarching hypocrisy. Their carbon footprint is usually far greater than the people they preach at. How many vegans forgo plane travel, foreign holidays, or all the technological conveniences of modern life? One on MN manage to combine bragging about her big house, fancy electric gates while simultaneously preaching about meat and climate change...

I'm lugging around about 55kg of muscle (according to some probably inaccurate Tanita readings) and I eat meat less than that and fish very infrequently.

Defo walk and lift or at least get up and down off the floor frequently.

TheDaysAreGettingLongerAtLast I cannot speak for other vegans but as I am concerned about the planet I "ration" my overseas travel to once every 10 or 12 years. I also walk or cycle whenever possible and only use the car if it is really necessary. Buses and trains are frequently more efficient.

Please do not label all "middle class vegans" as hypocrites. I don't preach either FYI.

Nice to hear one that is practicing what they preach - most unfortunately do not.
It's mainly a public performance, a desire to belong to a group or simply to feel superior to everyone else.

I've read the evidence base and i can categorically say that meat eaters only travel by horseback, which is definitely better for the planet, the horses enjoy it and it makes them feel all posh and superior.

Yes, i'm aware of these factors but meat and dairy consumption trump all of the above in terms of environmental impact. Reducing population intake is the single most effective action to take for reduction in environmental impact. It does seem counter intuitive in the case of non locally grown stuff. We need to eat more beans, we can grow them here.
Also scary reading about the uk's food insecurity....more beans is thecanswer to everything!

I eat 0 meat every day for high on 30 +years , and one look at me and you would see I am far from withering away ! 😂

Get a DEXA scan to check for osteoporosis and a creatine kinase test for muscle wasting.

@Knittedanimal I appreciate the reasoned response. I think we all have to do what is within our own remit, and what works for us.

As much as I didn't want to admit it, my vegetarian/vegan diet caused issues for me as I got older - being very active and sporty I simply couldn't consume enough calories to sustain a healthy weight or recover from exercise and injury. I also have a family history of skinny-but-frail women that I was worried about. Some people respond well to veggie or vegan diets, some don't. We can all do our bit about sustainability though, and reducing the amount of meat and dairy rather than completely cutting it out is probably more realistic for the majority (unless circumstances force otherwise of course)

Tell us you don't like vegans without telling us you don't like vegans.

WelshRabBite · 09/03/2026 23:46
In terms of protein, a simple rule of thumb is that you should be having the number you weigh in kg (say 70) in grams of protein per day minimum, up to about double (in this example 140g).
@WelshRabBite
@firstofallimadelight
Where does the 2 grams per kilo come from?

Assuming there is no disease state such as impaired kidney function (AKI/CKD) which would lower protein requirements, or impaired liver or lung function for e.g. (ALD/COPD) which would increase requirements, ~1g/kg is sufficient for most people.
https://www.peng.org.uk/publications-resources/pocket-guide-q-a.php

@moveyourbleedingarseI agree this is what I saw my mum eating as I grew up and am 47. She was on and off diets all of my childhood. When'on' it was half a grapefruit for breakfast, dry ryvita and celery dipped in salt for lunch and salad for an evening meal (meaning iceberg lettuce, a tin of tuna, tomatoes and cucumber). No dairy except skimmed milk, no eggs, no cheese, no nuts or beans or healthy fats, zero fat flavoured yogurts full of sugar, flora spread instead of butter. So it's no wonder she could never effectively lose weight and stick to a proper healthy diet. It would last about 3 weeks at a time in general.

He's a dumb fuckwit. Ignore him.

This post nails it!

I don't like fads.
I don't like religion and veganism is a secular religion.
I don't like virtue-signalling, which is what veganism in the West is mainly about.
I don't like young women's health being at risk from fad diets.
I don't like being lectured by pampered women (primarily but not exclusively) who have a bigger carbon footprint than I do.
I don't like pretence of any kind outside of novels/plays/film - humans got to the top of the food chain thanks to meat.

I don't think people who don't eat meat are superior in any way, shape or form to people who do eat meat, anymore than I think a rabbit is superior to a cat.

But you must think a cat is superior to a cow because, and correct me if I'm wrong, you don't eat cats?
Sorry, am I virtue signalling? Must be my impaired brain function.