To think there will never truly be a sisterhood because too many women are still competing for male attention?

[WaryLilacOtter]

I keep hearing about “the sisterhood” and how we’re all meant to uplift each other but I don’t really see it in action. The reality (at least in my experience) is that a lot of women are still operating from a place of scarcity, whether it’s about beauty, desirability or male validation.
It plays out in subtle ways too: side-eyes, comparisons, lack of support, even tearing each other down.

AIBU to think this competitive dynamic, especially when it comes to the male gaze, is what’s holding us back from truly building solidarity?

It’s all great once you get into your 50s OP, that’s when the sisterhood kicks in, when you realize the majority of men are self obsessed wankers 🤣

Its almost as if you expect women to all have the same personalities.
This isnt how humans work. We are all concerned to some extent with staus and access to resources.
People are all unique. That's all.

I think the problem is that male attention is still a factor that can disrupt the status quo, especially in the workplace.

A woman can be highly qualified, working hard and doing all the right things, but if an attractive female colleague catches the eye of a male manager then it is no longer a level playing field. Even women are also drawn to more attractive women.

I say this knowing that I have benefited from this at times, even in subtle ways. But been disadvantaged by it at other points in my career.

I have also been on an interview panel and had to fight for the older, more experienced woman against a younger, bubbly, attractive but significantly less experienced woman. The person who was advocating for her was another woman!

But you are talking in very global terms and women are not some homogenous entity. I very much have a feeling of sisterhood among my (mostly single) female friends. We are there for each other even if we bicker sometimes. We treat each other with care and kindness even if we may disapprove of each other's views. And I don't believe any of us actually ever criticised each other appearance or competed for a man. And I would very much expect one of my female friends to pull me up if they deem my views or behaviour unsavoury because I am not above being challenged. If you don't have this experience with your close friends, maybe think about why you attract people into your life which behave in a way you describe.

Hello are you Liz Fraser collecting anecdotes for your new book ?

I don't agree with the "sisterhood". I dont agree I should have to support someone just because they are a woman. If I disagree with what they are saying / doing, I'm not just going to say well she's a woman as am I so I'll support it.

This 1000%.

This is my experience too but it might be because I’m not in my 20s and trying to find a mate.

Competitive women want the approval of other women. Men aren’t judging women by the same metrics. If they were then lesbians wouldn’t have the same issues with their friends like people being selfish or whatever.

'distancing yourself from another woman because you see her as “competition” or undermining someone socially when male attention is involved. '
These kinds of behaviours are already looked down upon though? They're not seen as desirable or acceptable. Do you really think sisterhood will only exist if no woman ever behaves that way? I don't. I believe the fact that these behaviours are seen as undesirable proves the fact the sisterhood already exists.

💯

Perfectly put! Agree with all of this.

I'm older than that. The sisterhood has always been a meaningless concept to me. I have a a range of male and female friends who I value as human beings.

I think it's inherently unreasonable to expect there to be a sisterhood. Some women are awful, some are bigoted, some are just not my cup of tea. I het angry about sexism, misogyny and male violence against women, but I don't feel a sense of sisterhood. I'm not denying that competitiveness over acquiring a man isn't part of what can cause bad relationships and a lack of cooperation amongst women. Of course it is. That's in-built, evolutionary human behaviour and it's not going away. But even without that there wouldn't be a sisterhood imo.

Are you quite young, OP?

I am actually socially rubbish, and don't have a strong female friendship group. However, looking around, I see only positive support between women, rather than competition.

Lots of mums helping out other mums. And at work, I see successful women supporting others, and highlighting their achievements.

Do you mean women in their 20s side eying each other in nightclubs?

I keep hearing about “the sisterhood” and how we’re all meant to uplift each other but I don’t really see it in action.

Well I didn't get the memo.

What about women you have absolutely no respect for?

Are we supposed to 'uplift' them too because they were born with a vagina?

I don't think there's much of a "sisterhood", any more than there's some special "brotherhood" amongst all men. Some women are essentially good and will help another woman when they can, others aren't honestly interested in anyone but themselves, same as with men. And for that matter, we can uplift people of the opposite sex, too, with no ulterior motive. (ETA: And yes, there are some women I have no interest in helping, because they're awful or simply not someone I like. I hope I'd still do my basic duty toward them in a life or death situation, but I'm not sparing them much thought on a daily basis, if I'm being honest.)

All people are competing with one another at some level, under some circumstances, and we're all only human, full of flaws that are difficult to overcome. If anyone's hoping for a sacred sisterhood that means women will always put the well-being of other women above their own basic needs and desires, they're in for a disappointment.

As someone who has been involved in feminist women’s groups for a long time, the lack of sisterhood comes from ideological and political in-fighting, not from who wants to shag what man.

The sisterhood doesn’t exist when you have a family, because you’re always going to put the interests of your own economic unit against those of women collectively. Take for example part-time working and prioritising a husbands career - it’s brutal for expectations on other women in the workplace because good looks like a man with a wife at home. But when did you ever hear about a woman returning to work so that she can ensure her husband takes equal responsibility for child rearing and employers learn that its something all workers do and not just women.

It's just dog eat dog, IMHO.

Women hate women who are better looking than them, men hate other men who are taller.

And obviously everyone hates people who are richer, better educated etc

You're surrounded by the wrong women if you think they're trying to compete with you. We're definitely not all like that.

The reason to uplift individual women is the idea of solidarity Women as a class are disadvantaged as a class, so for an individual woman to uplift another individual woman, as a principle, and if done at scale, helps to rectify problems on the ground as well as raising awareness of the systemic issues that need to change.

It is not the same as saying I, as an individual woman, always really like or rate the other individual woman A B and C more than I do the individual men D E and F, so I choose to take their side even when they are being twats.

As an individual, you can (indeed should) weigh up whether it is better to act out of principle towards solidarity EVEN WHEN the individual woman B is a pain in the neck, or whether you decide that individual man F, on that occasion, is more worthy of your support than individual woman B. You might want to take into account other intersectional issues like class, race, age or personal issues like what you know of the skills, attitude or motivation of both B and F.

However I think it is the responsibility of educated women to question their individual motivations on these occasions - "Is there any internalised misogyny in my preference of man F over woman B? Am I holding them to the same standard of behaviour?" And if you go against the principle of solidarity, be satisfied why you are doing so.

The trouble is that many of us find it really hard now to apply general social principles and philosophies like solidarity to our everyday lives because our culture is steeped in individualism and we genuinely believe there's a level playing field and we all make pure choices. On mumsnet over 20 years I have been constantly surprised and appalled that people can't feel their own individual preference in their minds whilst also considering that the reason we hold our views may be socially conditioned. We're often really poor at considering insights about mass scale statistical impacts and applying them to our individual decision making.

This is also because our education system is not fitted for the modern world and does not educate us about what we can learn from both statistical information and qualitative information; also not enough on philosophy, rights and the nature of solidarity- potentially because it is not in the interests of capitalism, colonialism or patriarchy to teach us any of this.

Attacking the OP rather than seeking to answer the question is, in my opinion, a very lazy form of discussion. Shame on you lazy PP’s.

So OP YANBU but I am firmly on the side of it being a biological imperative.

I agree with this and think the same of men. It is all about competing with male ideas of masculinity. Men value strength and wealth and status. A lot of women (while appreciating physical attributes they find attractive) want a man who is thoughtful and supportive, can be an equal partner. When women express this they are shot down by men not by other women.

meh - you can discuss it all you like.

In the meantime i will carry on doing everything i can to get equality, preserve equality and boost equality wherever i can. And if that means supporting, say, a woman's business? yep i will do that if what they are selling is good. etc etc