What is going on with people?

[Emptyandsad]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/mar/05/gen-z-men-baby-boomers-wives-should-obey-husbands

Society seems to be going backwards! I always thought that, generation after generation, we were generally, slowly, becoming more equitable...

Or their fathers.

Ok poorly worded. My point was there is a whole thread of people strongly giving their opinions on why there has been an increase in belief that wives should obey husbands, when there is no data in article showing that. The UK is actually doing really well (from an equality perspective) compared to nearly all other countries in terms of the % who think this too.

Its also really notable that all of the comments were locating the problem of men thinking women should obey them with white western men rather than with conservative Muslims, who I would guess to be the largest population believing this in the UK, (and quite likely the world).

Incels, porn, Musk and Tate. A heady mix of women hating toxicity.

Yes, why are mothers blamed when boys take their model of how to be a man from their Fathers?

I know people keep mentioning AT, but the movement in values from Boomers to Gen Z shows each generation being less progressive on these gender issues that the previous one. So Gen Z less progressive than millenials, who are less progressive than Gen X, who are less progressive than Boomers.

That can’t all be blamed on Andrew Tate.

Have you read it properly, 'People of both genders in Indonesia (66%) and Malaysia (60%) were most likely to agree with the statement, compared with 23% in the US and 13% in Great Britain'. So hardly any in GB. Click bait.

I agree - people are being lazy in their analysis (as are you in fairness simply reaching for “it’s the Muzzies”.) It would be interesting to see where the global drive in more conservative attitudes is coming from and if a shift is visible across conservative and non conservative societies alike.

For example when asked how much they agree:

”How important or not important is
achieving equality between men and
women to you personally?” 63% of British responders agreed it was important / fairly important. This was a smaller number than in India, Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia.

I do agree most have missed this is a global survey. On current attitudes the UK is doing pretty well. Although it’s interesting how differently people express their personal views to be vs. what they believe society believes.

I'm not being lazy. I've backed up my argument that conservative Islam is a significant player in the ' wives should obey husbands' belief. You have not provided any evidence to show I am being lazy in stating this.

Sure there will be other drivers to this belief. Very conservative Christians have this view, but this is very much a small minority view amongst Christians, whereas it is not amongst Muslims.

Its significant that no-one has mentioned Islam is a factor in this global belief, despite it being reported in the article that this is the majority view in two muslim countries ( who have the highest % of this view amongst all the surveyed countries).

So not, not a lazy view. In fact, your objection to me raising Islam could be regarded as lazy objection. You clearly just feel very uncomfortable with someone stating anything you consider negative about Islam, not matter how fact based it is.

Which brings me back to my original point about people being driven by emotion rather than evidence and facts.

How important or not important is achieving equality between men and
women to you personally?” 63% of British responders agreed it was important / fairly important. This was a smaller number than in India, Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia

This is likely to simply reflect the fact that Britain has already achieved higher equality between the sexes than the other countries you mention. @JHound

The mistake people make is that it’s inevitable society will keep moving in one direction. I blame all those 19th century evolutionists.

I think it’s a mix of things really. Firstly if you demonise someone (men) for a long time eventually they will become demons and find their own Satan to follow.

Secondly we have large influxes of people into society from backgrounds that see women as second class. Have 5 boys in the class who have come from homes that see this as the truth and that will soon spread round a classroom. this is the kind of thing people are concerned about when they talk about cultural dilution

Thirdly the rise of social media where every Tom Dick and Harry have a platform and cultural differences don’t apppear. Suddenly your child sat in Croydon is being influenced by a man in Deep South USA Pakistan

You are being lazy. When looking at the responses to questions where there is a break down it’s not as simplistic as your knee jerk “iT’s thE MuZZieS!”

I object you accusing others of knee jerk laziness while demonstrating the exact same. Especially when they actual info in the survey is more nuanced and we have zero data on what is driving the shift in attitudes globally.

zilch.

Its significant that no-one has mentioned Islam is a factor in this global belief, despite it being reported in the article that this is the majority view in two muslim countries ( who have the highest % of this view amongst all the surveyed countries)

Also a majority view in India which, while it has a lot of Muslims, it is NOT a muslim country.

It was not a majority view in Turkey (Muslim country) and when asked if they agree a woman should not appear “too independent or self sufficient” minorities agreed in Indonesia and Turkey. Which was my point. Lazy.

We don't know if there are shifts globally. That article only gave one change in attitude and that could just have been due to thinking good progress had been made on equality. Its hard to say without knowing why people gave those answers.

But again, I have give good reasons for why I think Muslims are a significant player in the global figures for those who think wives should obey husbands - not the only player, but a significant one. That is backed by the global data given. And the Qu'ran. And Sharia law.

You have given absolutely no evidence to back your disagreement with this. Instead you have resorted to a childish mocking of me. The equivalent of name calling. Not impressive. You have not even tried to make your case. And that is lazy.

I agree we don’t know if there is a shift in every single country globally (except on the one question when asked if equality had gone far enough.

But you are engaging in the same behaviour you are accusing others of.

No I don’t have evidence of what the driver is but the main point is, neither do you. The data is far more nuanced than you are presenting. And we don’t know where we see the biggests shifts in generations.

It could be that Indonesia has not changed at all and remained consistently conservative. Or maybe the are 100% of the driver in the shift of global attitudes generation to generation.

There is simply not enough data provided.

You are simply seeking to replace the prejudices of others with your own.

There is so much truth in this.

Look just how very many men are involved in Epstein's wrong doings. All the while believing themselves morally and intellectually superior to women whilst behaving like entitled monsters, raping women and children, keeping them from power and influence and treating like commodities. It just goes to show how many men are perfectly happy to abuse women when they think they can.

Men need to step up as a group because currently many women are less than impressed

And then they wonder why there is a 'male loneliness epidemic'.

Aint nobody putting up with that shit anymore.

@BigBangSherry and despite your insistence that “it’s the MUzzIEs!” there are only 3 Muslim majority countries in the survey.

That’s 10% of the survey population. That’s not enough to explain the shift in attitudes.

I am always surprised that so many women are surprised that so many men really do not like them. Social media is just surfacing what lays not very far beneath.

Nah I don’t believe this study.
whereas it looks large (23 000 people), that was across multiple countries (29 countries!!), genders and two generations.

so it could be less than a thousand people per country and that number would include men AND women AND both Gen Z and baby boomers. So could be 250 people of each category PER COUNTRY. Thats not representative at all. Even if proportion was different it’s just not realistic to get a representative number from 23000 people across 29 countries.

THEN it depends how the respondents were picked and contacted and how the questions were formulated.

Well sure, there'll be lots of factors at play. I was just adding one more. I find it ridiculous that any mention of immigration at all gets reactions like yours. I'm an immigrant myself - and yes, my culture is a bit different to that of my host country. Shocker.

Good point.

Aside from the AT and intel stuff, I think traditional gender roles in relationships have become very much romanticised in the past few years. The pregnant and barefoot, everything from scratch, homesteader lifestyle. Often tied in with a rejection of the mainstream, things like vaccination and formal education. Maybe it feels like a rebellion of sorts.

I think both young men and young women have bought into it. It looks simple, wholesome, aesthetically pleasing on socials and is a rejection of the big bad scary world and modern ideals. Harking back to simpler times when things were clearer and less messy - the good old days if you will.

It’s idealistic and oversimplified, with little thought of how vulnerable women were in the ‘good old days’ at their husband’s mercy, with little opportunity outside the home.

Again, we don't know if there are shifts. But we do know that wives obeying husband's is a common Muslim belief, that over the past decades since about 1970s there has been a global revival in conservative- religious Islam, and that Islam is a growing religion and Muslim countries have high proportions of people believing wives should obey husbands. All of these are facts. Stating this as evidence that Islam is a driver for people believing wives should obey husbands is not prejudice but evidence based opinion.

You have done nothing to counter this argument other than throw around baseless insults and unevidenced assertions.

Can I ask you where your knowledge of Islam comes from? Because I have a Masters degree in Religion, have read three different translations, with commentary of the Qu'ran, have read a lot of books on Islam including a lot written by Muslims about their faith and journey and experiences within Islam, have attended a lot of talks by Muslims on Islam and subscribe to several different Muslim you tube channels.

That you have to conclude, without any basis or argument to back up your position whatsoever that when I state Islam is a contributor to people around the world believing wives should obey husbands, it is because I am lazy and prejudiced, says a lot about the ideological stance behind your own position.

What seems to be happening, is that you hear me say that and believe it is negative about Muslims so you automatically think you have to reject it, even though you have not argument or data to reject it with.

I would also add that you also seem to be, in an act that if similar were done by others I imagine you may consider Western Colonialism, are imposing your own values onto Islam. Do you not realise that religious Muslims believe their faith is the perfect and faultless way to live life, and that wives obeying husbands, and husbands fulfilling their obligations to wives, is in no way negative, but is the perfect way to live life in submission to the will of Allah? They would see it as a good thing and not regard themselves as needing your defence.

I'm assuming that is your motivation, anyway. Because I can't think of any other reason why you would be making such baseless objections to what I say, that you can't defend, whereas I can, and have, well defend my position.

At my DCs school world book day seems no different to when I was at school. In fact I’d say the costumes are actually more dialled down overall than when I was at school

Sorry wrong thread