to ask this without expecting a backlash?

[Fleurflowering]

I know that people will accuse me of being goady etc, but I would like to ask these questions without a tirade of hate being posted at me. I'm genuinely ignorant about this and want to understand it better.

I was born in 1978. When I was at school, there was a flicker of a mention of autism, but it didn't seem to be commonplace.

Did children have autism? Did ADHD exist then? Or are these new problems and why have they arisen?

Every school class seems to have children with SEND - autism being very common. But, when I was at school, there were "Remedial" classes, but behaviour was nowhere near as bad as it seems to be nowadays and teachers didn't need to differentiate lessons like they have to now. I hear so many people saying that their kids are on the spectrum, or that they themselves have autism.

I also don't remember any school refusers. Is this a new mental health symptom, or are children more autonomous and possibly less resilient nowadays?

I know I'll be flamed, but I'm not denying these conditions exist. I'm trying to learn whether they are new or not.

If i think back to my childhood in the 90s, there were people in school who clearly had autism but no diagnosis.

My DH was in school in the 90s and had speech and language therapy and was kept back a year but there was never investigation into his social or emotional skills.

My DS was diagnosed with autism at 3. I definitely don't think the diagnosis is given out freely by professionals. There was an intensive multi disciplinary assessment and criteria that had to be met.

Despite this, If DS was tested now (at 11yo), I actually think the result would be different and it would say hes NT - but this is off the back of years of early intervention and teaching him social and emotional norms that other people get. Yes, he still encounters issues but would it be enough to pass the criteria - I don't think so. For this reason, I actually think that autistic people can be more resilient now than they were previously, because they have been taught for example social skills and coping techniques etc whereas before it was just ignored.

its so hard to get a diagnosis that I do wonder if some people say their children have x, y or z, when they present with bad behaviour, because this is what they assume, but they actually don't have a diagnosis. I know a couple of kids with asd around DS age and I don't think the behaviour of any of them is bad.

It certainly existed, probably has throughout history, what’s changed to some degree is the total lack of discipline that existed at that time which , rightly or wrongly, checked behaviour. I had a colleague at work who said ADHD stood for adult deficit in handling disorder

Of course they did. They were just the 'naughty' kids or didn't go to mainstream at all since more special schools were available because there was no inclusion push at that point.

@LiviaDrusillaAugusta Actually when I was diagnosed with ASD in 2000, I had had to see six different people in person over the course of several months. And that was as a middle aged adult

well, things seem to have changed a lot in 25 years for a lot of people as I know of quite a few where that has not been the case in the last 5 odd years.

I can remember one boy at school who was labelled as the naughtiest boy in the class. But he was extremely bright if a little odd - I believe he went on to be a brilliant scientist and looking at ADHD criteria now would think he fits the criteria. However I do think that the prevalence of Autism, ADHD and other conditions isn't necessarily down to familial passing on but probably more likely to have been affected by people diets and how food has been messed with over the years and it is now manifesting itself as neurological conditions.

I can look back now ( went to school in the 80s) and pick out the children that probably had some sort of neurodiversity.

However, there was maybe 1 or 2 per year, now its every second child.

I look at my own experiences with my 12 yo DD who has went though a terrible patch moving to high school totally and utterly out of the blue. All the professional services involved immediatly jumped on the ADHD/Autism train.
I even considered it but i think it was my ego that would have preffered to say "its not me thats caused it she has X"

After a few changes, compromises, boundaries ( espeically with phone use ) she has calmed down back to her usual self.

I think alot of people are looking for an excuse to diagnose their child when the behaviour is bad. We are no labeling children for life and noone has considered the potential damaging affects that could cause.

Out of my close group of 7 school friends every single one of us has been told at some point that our child/children should be assessed.

OP posted and ran away, she was that interested in understanding more about it…

Yes, there was a huge numbers of kids who left with relatively few qualifications. I don't know how that compares to today because it's difficult. How do you separate genuine grade inflation from kids being given better teaching from us actually needing to assess slightly different stuff. I'd like to think it's fewer though.

This.

In my class at state primary school I can think of one who might have had ADHD but at the time he was of below average intelligence and a bit fidgety and poorly behaved. Nothing like the behaviours you get now though.

In my state comp secondary school I can't even think of one in my class who had anything beyond being less intelligent than the class average. There was one girl who was frequently absent. There were perhaps three or four boys in the year group who were characterised as trouble makers.

In the year below there was one girl with anorexia.

There definitely were school refusers, I was one of them. Born in 74.

If I were at school now there’s every chance I’d be diagnosed autistic. Shame it wasn’t picked up all those years ago.

DLA / PIP claims are more likely to be granted if you have an official diagnosis. This has surely fuelled the increased diagnosis.

I was born in the 80s. There was a lad in my school year that quite clearly had ADHD teachers loved him he was a character but he was undiagnosed and couldn’t apply himself at all.

We also had the first autistic child join our year in secondary he managed quite well but his difficulties were clear.

I was also one of the first students at the school with a disability but mine was physical only

I don’t think there was LESS neurological diversity then just that it was spoken of in a very different way, with language now seen, rightly, as regressive and offensive

I agree there was that too. The difference was we we ruled through fear and humiliation so yes we desperately tried to be normal/ under the radar. Not great for mental health though.

I grew up in the 80's and now I think I'd be diagnosed with ADHD, one teacher described me in a school report as individual to the point of eccentricity! There were also a couple of kids who were just seen as naughty who obviously had something else going on. I'd be very surprised if they were no 'weird', 'naughty' or disruptive kids in your class that would now be recognised as struggling.
As a parent to an ADHD and autistic DS I'm pleased there is more support and understanding around!

There used to be ESN schools, so some pupils were educated entirely separately.

My cousin was one of those pupils, & he did very well in the smaller classes, plus I don't think he would have coped in a mainstream school.
I do wonder whether integration was best for all pupils.

I clearly remember two brothers in primary school (early-mid 80s) who used to run wild, throw chairs at the headmistress, you name it. Today they'd absolutely be labelled autistic. Back then they were the boys that we were all told would never amount to anything and to keep well away from. They both also used some really filthy racist language which I remember being really baffled at, and can only assume they learned it at home. If I recall, they were brought up by a relative as the parents weren't around.

This was really rare behaviour though, and no excuses were made.

Yes I do think it's all very much over-diagnosed these days, with some parents using it as a downright excuse for bad behaviour - my neighbour's girlfriend for one. She lets her kids regularly trample on neighbours' flowers, rampage through people's gardens, throw balls at cars, and then it's "THEY CAN'T HELP IT, THEY HAVE ADHD AND AUTISM, SO FUCK OFF" if you dare say anything.

@Fleurflowering

When we had anything to do with DSs schooling it was treated much more firmly.

The "truancy officer" would turn up to discuss the problem and reminded us that if we did not get them to school we could be taken to court and imprisoned. !!

That still applies although of course rare.

On occasions the TO would turn up and physically take children to school in car!

Unbelievable isn't it by today's "gentle" standards. Both DC went on to get degrees as adults.

"Difficult" children were often sent to some form of special schools or expelled/excluded with little effort to reintegrate them

Lots of posters saying 'it was there but unrecognised'. That may be partly true, though I doubt that's the main reason diagnoses are increasing.

I can't help but notice that people are very quick to label anyone they knew who was in any way dysfunctional as being probably 'undiagnosed' ND.

Is it not possible for someone to be dysfunctional in school, disruptive, easily distracted, or otherwise a bit 'weird', or different, without it being something to be 'diagnosed'??

There are a multitude of reasons why someone might be any or all of those things, including upbringing, personality, temperament, trauma experiences, etc.

The criteria for autism and ADHD now are so broad and flexible as to fit almost anyone, especially with the catch-all caveats that '"some people may present with few or no symptoms" or "not all symptoms manifest in the same way" etc etc.

But yes, YABU to expect to ask this question on MN and not get firestormed. There are many who are truly invested in this.

Some parents at our school push for a diagnosis. They tell their child that they have adhd / autism (before a diagnosis) and the children then consider (and use) it as justification for their behaviour.

I don’t believe this would have happened in the past and in fact parents probsbly wouldn’t want to label their child.

Behaviour across eyfs / ks1 and up to y3/4 is pretty poor in many schools. Some children are not receiving adequate parenting and often are left on tablets / phones as an easy option. Labelling a child as adhd / autism is easier for parents than admit to their failings.

@surrealpotato No, I object strongly to the claim that "the criteria are now so broad and flexible that they fit almost anyone". Diagnosis is still difficult to obtain, especially for women.

Our understanding of what counts as neurodiversity has broadened. That inevitably means that more people than we previously realised, are ND.

Is it not possible for someone to be dysfunctional in school, disruptive, easily distracted, or otherwise a bit 'weird', or different, without it being something to be 'diagnosed'??

Yes of course. Children can behave like that and still be within normal expected metrics. We understand better now though, that behaviour isn't just random, it happens for a reason. Every action that every human takes, is because that human is trying to meet a need or a want. It's perfectly possible that an entirely NT child with a good upbringing and no trauma will act out in class occasionally due to boredom. If they are acting out more often than average, it is worth wondering why that is.

There are a multitude of reasons why someone might be any or all of those things, including upbringing, personality, temperament, trauma experiences, etc.

Yes. And if that child is presented for assessment for autism or another ND, these things will be looked for and their contribution to the behaviours taken into account.

DD3 got her EHCP with no diagnosis. She got PIP with only one of her 3 diagnoses. It's about need, not diagnosis.

If you ever take a look at a homeschooling Facebook site, there is a terrible drive for parents to deregister their children and home educate. Even parents who clearly lack literacy skills or suitable home-life are being encouraged to take the plunge. Many of the children are school avoiders already and then the parents are surprised that they also won’t engage in the education that they are providing at home and consequently it looks like there are a number of children at home doing absolutely nothing of much benefit.

There are clearly more issues in schools at the moment - behaviour being a big one. More support staff are needed and this needs to be addressed urgently to ensure those children and the rest of the class are able to learn.

"The criteria for autism and ADHD now are so broad and flexible as to fit almost anyone, especially with the catch-all caveats that '"some people may present with few or no symptoms" or "not all symptoms manifest in the same way" etc etc."

This is not true. There is simply a recognition that just because someone isn't climbing up the side of a warehouse and setting fire to it, it doesn't mean they aren't hyperactive, and that hyperactivity can exist in a micro sense rather than a macro sense.

There is a thread running just now where poster is asking about 'extreme' ADHD behaviours and recieves a list of typical, textbook symptoms such as often forgetting things or often reacting impulsively, as well as random non specific ones such as skin picking. And that's even before we get to masking so little to no symptoms at all being considered as evidence too.