To think someone should complain to HR

[HildegardVonBingham]

Hi all,

I’m a trainee solicitor at a middling city firm. A new HO dept was brought in about 9 months ago. To date he has not bought in a single client. He is rude and bullying - especially to women. He loudly slags off other team members in an open plan office… He brags at length in team meetings about his property portfolio and how he’s allegedly dating the niece of a billionaire. Bit gauche, but not the end of the world.

However my colleague has overheard him saying iffy things about women twice. She heard him on loudspeaker to another partner claiming that two women wanted to go out with him on Valentine’s Day, and that he hoped he wouldn’t forget the name of the one he chose (!!). Last night she heard him speaking in hushed tones to another partner saying something about seeing a trainee ‘sweating buckets’ in the gym. I have no reason to disbelieve my colleague - it completely tracks with his behaviour. Acting this way in an open plan office with young women around is such macho bollucks and I think my colleague should report him to HR. If she doesn’t, how should I handle this? Initially I wanted to qualify into the team, and the NQ market is so bad right now… I know I’m bottom of the food chain so feel like there is little I can do.

The guy sounds like an arse, but I am not sure saying someone was sweating or gossiping about his love life is a reason for complaint - even if it does suggest a pattern of behaviour.

In terms of what you can do, keep a record of incidents I guess? Report them once you can evidence a pattern of behaviour. Be brave and be the one that speaks up. But as a lawyer, let me tell you the industry is full of men like this.

I guess the issue is that you recognise that it might be bad for your career to complain but also expect someone else to do the same. YABU to expect others to report when you yourself won't.

I don't think his comments are at a HR level. (yet)

Surely a "middling city" legal firm should have policies for this? Equality and Diversity, Discipline and Grievance. Whistleblowing.

Read them and follow them. It's unlikely that any of the process is report to HR, much more likely that complaints or concerns should be raised in the first instance through his manager.

Surely the person who should report to HR is the person who is hearing this stuff?

Also at a City firm. Yes we all have behaviour guidelines and policies but in reality, it’s all about firm culture. Are you aware of your place being generally receptive to this stuff?

Personally, as a trainee, I’d be keeping my head below the parapet. Aim to qualify into the team and if things don’t change, look for a move after that. My hope would be that if he’s not bringing in work he’ll move on before too long…

Why would you report it to HR, they're not responsible for managing him, his line manager is so talk to his manager. Better yet read your policy on bullying and harassment or code of conduct and follow the guidelines in there. You can go to HR by all means but their job is to give you your options which I've detailed above.

I agree it’s absolutely a culture thing, and if he’s rude and bullying towards and openly berates colleagues in the office and nobody has been willing to speak up, then I’d keep your head low until you qualify and then look to move on.

If you do want to complain, then the above should be the HR complaint you lead with, with examples. A he-said-she-said about what a colleague has told you they overheard is unlikely to have much weight.

Well now you know, if you feel strongly enough about it, you could complain.

Thats all there is to it really. But be prepared for your colleague to not want to get involved and it ultimately going nowhere.

How is saying you saw someone in the Gym “sweating buckets” a HR incident ?

Bullying people absolutely, definitely for HR

@ExtraOnions he was making general comments about her looking unattractive and ‘sweating buckets’ - in what world is that not inappropriate ?

Me neither

All you can do op is complain to your/his manager (or HR, who may pass it on to relevant manager to deal with), or dont, or tell him your colleague overheard him and ask him to stop.

Thats it really 🤷‍♀️

If you go to HR would you not be dropping your colleage in it?

I would be thinking about my career at this point, OP, not concerning myself with his.

So you’ve lumped in his “rude and bullying” behaviour in with the boasting / bragging and describe it as a “Bit gauche, but not the end of the world”.

Yet the things you want to complain about to HR are that he can’t remember his date’s name and that he said someone was sweating buckets in the gym, I mean, really?

Don’t you think the bullying behaviour THAT YOU WITNESSED is what you should be going to HR about rather than HEARSAY from your colleague?

Sounds like you’re trying to shit stir and cause trouble for your colleague to be honest i.e. accusing her of spreading gossip about him.

What you are describing is hearsay - even if you have no reason to disbelieve your colleague - so unless your colleague who actually heard the comments is prepared to go to HR it will be difficult for them to act. Agree his comments aren’t entirely work appropriate but not sure they meet the HR thread hold for formal action / sanction.

It might not be great, but it doesn't mean it's against policy.

Again, I say this kindly, but you do need a thick skin in the world of law. You are going to come across a LOT of distasteful people. I think the culture is slowly changing for the better, but it's not there yet. Look at in house when you are qualified, I'd NEVER go back to private practice. Not least because of things like this.

Post written hurriedly in printer room - obviously not trying to drop my colleague in it…. Just thinking about whether it’s worth collating everything I’ve heard and encouraging others to do the same… Will most likely drop it but don’t think it’s unreasonable to canvass views. @NameChangeElaine I think you’ve deliberately misread my post but that’s your prerogative :)

In the nicest possible way, you will have to toughen up in the law. I agree with @Cheepcheepcheep. You need to understand the role of HR - it is not some arbiter of what is correct and appropriate behaviour. It is there to protect the firm, not the employees. Hopefully, given he is not bringing in work his tenure will be brief. Firms might put up with crass behaviour but they are very unforgiving about fee budgets not being met. Concentrate on your own career and in the real world reporting hearsay comments to HR will not advance it. Why do you think your colleagues didn't report it? Some of what the partners got up to when I was a young solicitor was hair raising. I found myself at a conference with my much older boss who revealed his vasectomy over lunch and managed to manoeuvre me into his hotel room that evening to supposedly phone a work colleague. I just concentrated on keeping a clear line to the door and staying as far away from the bed as possible while trying to adopt a business-like demeanour and never dreamt of reporting it to HR. (We were both married - to other people.) He never repeated the behaviour so I imagine it was very clear to him that I was not at all interested.

@Darkladyofthesonnets HR is there to protect the firm, and that includes reputation!

OP this man's behaviour is very backwards and exactly what most law firms are trying to move away from given the reputational damage these sorts of activities have caused law firms. It needs to be raised somehow, but whether that is by approaching HR directly, using performance feedback if you can trust it, or even sending an anonymous note to the managing partner / chief people officer (yes! an option if you have no confidence in existing processes). You might also consider gathering facts with dates, and see what happens next as you build up your case. You need to make contemporaneous notes.

However, not yet bringing in a client even as a senior HO, is not necessarily end of the world (depending on practice area, business case etc etc) - brining that up just makes it sound like you're piling on in a vicious way

Are you doing 6 month seats? To be honest I’d avoid him as much as possible and time will soon be up and you’ll be in a new dept.

Realistically he’ll be out on his ear if he’s not making money. You haven’t overheard him so I wouldn’t get involved. If he’s as horrific as you say he will be on radar and that combined with being shit as his job will be enough to get him the push.

Unless you have personally experienced bullying or actually suffered yourself in some way i don’t think you can (or should) do anything. You shouldn’t be pushing your colleague to do anything either. Whilst the comments and his attitude are not nice I don’t actually see what you could take to HR. They are there to protect the business, not you.

if I were you I’d sit tight, get my head down and get through but not report - you will get known as a troublemaker if you go to HR with what you’ve said above. With any luck if he isn’t bringing in the business he’ll leave.

While I agree that his behaviour is distasteful, the more inappropriate/unprofessional end of things (talking about his love life, commenting on a colleague at the gym) are all hearsay.

If you report to either manager or HR, even if they wanted an excuse to get rid of him, they won't be able to act without a first hand account. If your colleague denies saying anything, you'll look like a troublemaker.

Even as a bit of a raging feminist, I don't think this is the hill to die (or damage your career) on.

Save it. Don’t ruin your career. It will come to a head. But it doesn’t need to be because of you right now. He’ll trip himself up. Stand back, watch and wait. There’ll be a point where it undeniable.

Is the bullying behaviour separate to the two incidents you’ve described?

Those two incidents are certainly boorish, but they are not HR incidents. Even if they were, in my experience HR depts in large organisations will not be on the side of the person reporting such behaviour.

If you’ve witnessed other incidents of bullying, that’s different - although sadly I’d still urge caution as junior women rarely ‘win’ in these situations.