“Everybody thought the EU was about people coming into the country … no-one told of us the benefits”.

[MrsMurphyIWish]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

And the response to this very now deprived community is to vote Reform.

“Brexit has removed a key source of funding, which the area desperately needs. County Durham received £154m of EU funding between 2014 and 2020, about £22m a year. Since the UK left the European Union, it receives about half that amount, £12m annually, under the UK Shared Prosperity Fund.”

The story is sad (and typical of deprived areas - I know, I live in one). Towns feeling forgotten and never recovering from closed industry but why can they not see history will repeat itself?

The baseline public service without which none of us would ever have lasted very long and which has pretty much always had some public organisation is/ are the armed forces. Seems fairly relevant at the moment.

Even funding for that is begrudged.

It’s not about the value of the service, it’s that the superrich individuals of the world aren’t making enough money - for what exactly? How many bloody superyachts do the likes of Andrew or even the King need?

Yes and the NHS helps keep people in work.

Another one is Education, how many Private Schools fund the training of the teachers they employ? from 'primary to 6th form to Uni... almost all of which gained their training & experience in the public sector, even those who paid fees, were subsidised on their training costs and had placements in the public sector.

Same with Private Health too.

Are you suggesting that the US doesn't produce good doctors in an entirely private health system?

@WaryCrow

Already the NHS is a ...... back up to private healthcare,

I have removed unpaid from that quote because it isn't true, and unvalued because that isn't true of anyone I know.,

I and the very many people who have been forced to use life savings to finance vital health care in order to keep some quality of life and prevent our life expectancy from being reduced by damage to our health from delays in treatment would say that you have that sentence completely the wrong way around.

I thank my lucky stars that we were savers when we were younger and earned enough to save.

Some services cover their costs. Some even make a profit.

They are a fleabite in the total cost of the Public Sector which is overwhelming financed from taxation.

You do realise that Americans spend absolute fortunes on Healthcare don't you? & if you have no money, it can often be curtains.

Though i'm not sure why you're bring in the USA?

On NHS as a back to PH, yes i ve seen this, as has my DD, PH also don't have AE and few if any ICU facilities.
PHI wont treat long term chronic conditions either, Cancer Strokes etc.

So whilst you can pay for heart op's etc, anything at all that goes wrong and its straight to the NHS.

Yes of course the US spends more, it's a very broken system. I brought it up because someone was suggesting that only the NHS can train doctors.

I think you mean insurance won't treat long term conditions. PH will if you're rich enough. A friend's parents are spending the rest of their life savings to extend the time she has left on some cancer treatment that isn't approved by the NHS.

The NHS is fabulous, you seem to be thinking I want it privatised? I don't. I just pointed out that if it wasn't there, employers would buy the health care they need to keep their workers working and the others would get sick and die. It isn't the businesses that would die without the NHS, it's the poor and those unable to work. Like they do in the US.

With no NHS, we would run out of HCP's.... business couldn't train and then give them the experience they require.

But you ve made my point, we need flourishing public & private sectors.

I really don't see why you think one is more important than the other.

What we do need though is to make sure monies spent on Welfare is spent wisely and in the correct amounts, sometimes cost cutting just leads to further expense down the line or in other areas.

See Austerity and slashing children's services or cutting council funding so we now have to spend 10s of billions fixing our roads.

With no NHS, we would run out of HCP's.... business couldn't train and then give them the experience they require

They do in America!

I really don't see why you think one is more important than the other.

Because you can't spend money on health services that you don't have. The money has to arrive first.

I don't think "important" is the right word to describe that relationship as it implies moral values that aren't part of that argument. It's a case of dependency more than importance.

...and the PS cannot pay any tax without an educated and healthy workforce....

..we aren't starting from "Ground Zero" so the current tax payer base were born in NHS hospitals, educated in the public sector.

On America, those HCPs were educated in state schools.....

As you re a Reform supporter (?) i'd be rather careful if you still support the NHS, Reform may have stepped back from full privatisation but i think thats more to do with keeping voters on side, than any genuine desire to keep the NHS.

Anyway, i'm out now, you have very fixed views and cannot even acknowledge the input the public sector provides to our economy/that we need both to flourish.

we need both to flourish

We don't. The US has flourished very well without a publically funded health care system. There is no point in accusing me of being closed minded while refusing to see evidence that's right in front of your eyes across the Atlantic.

What we need a publically funded health care system for is to protect the poor and those unable to work.

The US gets that badly, badly wrong.

No I am not a Reform supporter, I think Farage would make a dreadful PM and the Yusef announcement today, if he's being quoted correctly, that indefinite leave to remain will be removed from people who already have it, is an outrageous suggestion.

It's worth remembering that of the $5 trillion or so the US spends on healthcare, about a third is public spending (Medicare/Medicaid).