To not encourage DS to go to Uni?

[Walterand719]

He’s 1st year A levels, doing humanities, predicted 3 As. He’s never wanted to go to university and his mind hasn’t changed. I know his college focuses a lot on Uni-lots of information sessions, visitors etc. so he knows what it’s all about.

I was in the generation where Uni felt like the only option after A levels and it would have been very odd for me not to go. It was pretty much assumed that I would and I don’t know anyone from my year that didn’t go.

Anyway, he’s going to apply for an apprenticeship. He has several ideas in mind and he’s building his CV and work experience around them.

Am I doing the right thing by not pushing him to go to university? I’ve really not encouraged (I’ve not discouraged it either just left him to make his own mind up).

I would encourage your son to take a year out and see how job opportunities go. This is what my DD did and she was completely sure she wasn't going to uni after school. However, after applying for apprenticeships and seeing there was little on offer she's decided to go. I spoke to some other mums and it turns out she's not the only one who got her results last year and is off to uni this year, there are quite a few of them now going. Many applied for degree apprenticeships and didn't get them.
Even at the other end of the scale, my friends son is trying to apply for a electrician apprenticeship at a good company that has 30 places (you can do this at 16yrs). So far they haven't even got to the application deadline and 110 people have applied, many a lot older and driving, some with university and a level backgrounds.

Neither of my sons went to uni.
Ds 2 was expected to when he was in high school but ds1 was adamant that he would not be going to college or uni.
Ds1 took an apprenticeship and did well. He had a career change at 22. He is in a niche field and doing extremely well. His employer paid for him ho fo a degree.

Ds2 went to college and we expected uni but he too wanted to get an apprenticeship. He too has done really well post qualifying.
Uni is not the answer for everything for everyone.

Agree with this. Apprenticeships have become 'acceptable' now including for high achievers, independent school students etc and there are very few around, especially if you don't live in a city. Even at level 2 or 3, there are far fewer than in previous years, for a higher number of candidates applying.
Conversely, unis are lowering entry requirements to enable domestic students to gain places, replacing overseas students whose numbers have declined.
I would support DS to apply via Ucas so he has the option of uni - including a commutable one if he doesnt want to go away - rather than lose this option altogether. A lot can change in a year at that age.

The amount debt kids come out with now is terrible and you need to be earning in excess of £60k on average to even start paying off more than just the interest every month. It is hugely out of proportion and has a massive impact these days on being able to buy a house and so on. I was reading something the other day today showed that UK average student debt is now greater than USA average student debt. Averages do mask inequality there with some USA students having minimal due to scholarships and some having higher debt but still horrifying.

It isn't like 20 odd years ago when fees and loans were relatively new but the fees were minimal and loans covered most of your expenses. Eg when I was at uni the cost of catered halls at my uni was pegged to the basic loan. These days the basic loan has risen marginally to I think around £3900 but the cost of catered halls is £10-12k.

If a young person can achieve their goal through a route other than university then that is what I would encourage. Degree apprenticeships are often very well regarded. However they are very competitive so I would encourage my teen to keep options open and not completely rule out uni but maybe consider it as a back up.

Fwiw I have one post A level student doing a chef apprenticeship but my current year 12 is set on doing a subject that absolutely needs the uni route. It's all about supporting the individual and the best route for them.

I think you’re doing the right thing. An apprenticeship is the way to go but just make sure he’s doing the prep for that - volunteering maybe? DofE? Part time job? Hobbies? All the things that will make him stand out as a rounded character at interview. If he misses out he can always apply to uni at a later date if he changes his mind.

My son went to a grammar where being predicted 3 As was pretty standard.... loads of these kids didn't go to uni. I think his idea for an apprentiship is a great one.

Interesting to hear this from someone more knowledgeable.

None of my sons have shown interest in going to uni and I haven't pushed them for reasons mentioned above. My perspective is that uni isn't going anywhere and they might want to do something slightly different first.

Probably coloured by me going slightly later at 22. Definitely the best choice for me.

FE week has good articles re apprenticeships and stats.
There are just so few places compared to candidates that inevitably they are going to yp with top grades and lots of extras like pt work, volunteering, being able to drive.
https://feweek.co.uk/degree-apprenticeships-less-accessible-to-disadvantaged-young-people-than-russell-group-unis/

It really depends on what the alternative options are. There are a LOT of young people looking for jobs and apprenticeships right now.

There simply hasn’t been the investment in apprenticeships that was promised and many employers are not interested in creating them at a time they’re making redundancies in their existing workforce.

So my advice would be have a plan, whatever that plan is, with some timescales. If he hasn’t found a job/apprenticeship etc within a certain time have a plan B.
Spending months on end job hunting in vain, scrabbling between zero hours contract can be soul destroying. I’m seeing young adults go through it. I’ve seen the desperation in the hundreds of candidates that apply to us.

A lot of people are going to Uni in the hope the job market will have improved in three years. No one wants to take on that debt.

The only word of caution really is to have a back up option. Degree apprenticeships are hard to get, can be cancelled at the whim of the employer. What is plan b?

Both my DC have bought flats by themselves in London/borders age 27, one on a degree apprenticeship and the other with a degree band 6 NHS. It's is not impossible. DS was 3 years ago and DD completed on her flat week before christmas.

Neither Me nor my 4 DC went to Uni ,
I am just not academic or, truthfully , bright enough for that.
Your outlook is lovely though I must say . You sound a great support , your DH less so!

My DS applied for both uni and degree apprenticeships. It was easier to get into a top uni than secure an apprenticeship. Some of his friends didn’t go to uni (all A-A* students) and they are still trying to find something. One has applied to 60 degree apprenticeships and over 300 jobs, and only been invited for 1 interview. My advice would be to keep all options open in case the degree apprenticeship route isn’t available. It’s brutal out there for young people right now.

Degree apprenticeships are so competitive, you really have to stand out in every way. A friend's son is doing one, they took three candidates (out of over 100 applicants), unlike the uni courses that take you once you have the grades.
Degree apprenticeships are for the people who want the degree but not the fun of uni. It's less social and you really are working hard. This suits some but not all 18 year olds.
I would encourage acing the A Levels, then either looking for an apprenticeship (degree or otherwise) and/or taking a year out, and making a decision later with grades in hand.

To be fair to DH he is generally lovely but he works in a field (that DS is not interested in) where everyone has a Degree and most people in his orbit also have degrees. He is genuinely worried that without a traditional degree DS won't achieve what he is capable of or be happy, its not snobbery. He also wants to make sure DS has the same opportunities as his sister - although they are VERY different
He is gradually coming around now as he has been following the press regarding student debt.
I have been encouraging DS to attend online and IRL events recently re Apprenticeships (degree and otherwise) and DH has been broadly supportive .

Better for whom - society, capitalism? I think going to university is invaluable for critical thinking skills, increasing your social and cultural capital and making you into a better rounded human being

Given that he has a clear plan as free a-levels, he's much better waiting off applying for an apprenticeship.

He will always have the opportunity to go to Uni later if it's required for the career he wants to do, and if he decides to do so he will get a lot more from it after some work experience.

Depends what he wants to do. DS is in a
similar position results wise and has applied for apprenticeships alongside uni. Just be aware it’s exceptionally competitive. The cost of uni is pushing a lot of people to apply. It certainly makes a lot more sense financially. So many graduates can’t get jobs now. Even the likes of medicine and law graduates are finding it hard.

Perhaps he could apply to uni as a back up?

I didn’t go to university despite being successful at school because I hadn’t decided what career I wanted. My school put a lot of pressure on for me to apply anyway and I’m glad I didn’t do something for the sake of it.

I did an apprenticeship, through that found a career I loved that I had never heard of before. Started a required degree to work in the sector at 20 and am further specialising in my early 30s with an employer funded masters. I don’t think anybody should rush into uni for the sake of it.

I agree that it is pointless to push a young person down a route that doesn't interest them. However, I'd be exploring the reasons why he doesn't want to go to University and encourage him to look at all the options - just make sure he's got sound reasons for his decision and has got sensible ideas for what he is going to do.
A good degree apprenticeship does indeed have a lot going for it and the idea of being paid rather than accumulating debt is a very attractive one. However the best ones are very competetive. I know of young people who have had excellent exam results and offers from very well regarded Universities who haven't got beyond the first round of selection for sought after degree apprenticeships so it is worth considering what he's going to do if he doesn't get onto the kind of scheme he's hoping for.
However I also believe that University offers more than just the degree. To some extent views on this are likely to be coloured by your own experiences and where you live of course but University really broadened my horizons and I was keen for my DC to have that too. Live somewhere else, meet people you wouldn't otherwise have met, try new things. Think differently, have your world view challenged. Get some independence but in a controlled way.
And of course there are apprenticeships and apprenticeships. One of my DC's friends is doing a cyber security degree apprenticeship in Cheltenham. Something like that would tick a lot of the same boxes as going to University for me. He's living independently and clearly having a good time socially whilst being really challenged academically. But I also know a lot of young people around their age who are doing degree apprenticeships with the one big local employer here. They've got some money, have bought themselves decent cars etc and will have no debt, but they are all still living at home, with their Mums doing their washing and cooking their meals, going to the same pubs, playing for the same local sports clubs on a Saturday morning etc. They'll get jobs in the same place afterwards and go on to be financially secure I am sure and there is nothing wrong with that life. If my DC choose to return to this area after University (and I think at least one probably will) then that is absolutely fine by me, in fact I'd rather like it. But I want it to be an informed decision for them, and for them to have different experiences to compare with. I like living where we are, but I chose it and I want my DC to have choice too. Since they had both the ability and opportunity to go somewhere else I encouraged that, though if any of them had found a high quality degree apprenticeship then that would have been fine. But I didn't really want them going straight from school into a local apprenticeship and to still have their feet under my table in a decade, which is something I have seen friends' children do time and time again.
I would never have forced my DC to do something they really didn't want to do, but I did encourage them to get out of their comfort zones and take the opportunities open to them. It doesn't have to be University but I think that an able young person should be looking for something to stretch themselves.

I don’t agree with “pushing” university if there’s a lack of interest as it’s a waste of time and money if no interest and not self motivated given it’s so self directed.

Having said, that he’s studying humanities and is academic, so what kind of work is he interested in? Even practical, vocational work may require a degree, so depends entirely on his career aspirations as to whether eg the apprenticeship route would be relevant.

DS finished his degree apprenticeship last year. He was guaranteed a job if he passed and they paid his tuition fees, he is now on 40k. Was the best decision he ever made. He did training on the job plus some attendance at a local University. The recruitment process consisted of more than one interview and multiple tests and was brutal. DH and I used to have some responsibility for University admissions, they needed an interview for DH discipline in mine as long as you hit the grade you were generally offered a place. I think training like that is probably the hardest and you have to be exceptionally driven.

If I was entering my career now, I wouldn’t go to university and I’d go down the apprenticeship route (which wasn’t available when I qualified).

I had a great time at university and at the time that did feel valuable; it broadened my social horizons and independence. However, in the grand scheme of things, I’m not sure it would be worth the debt I’d need to incur these days.