To partially disagree with the argument about the 'second shift' made by some WASPIS?

[Carla786]

I know that workplace discrimination was rife for women who were born in the 1950s. Lack of childcare etc. I'm not disputing that.

I disagree partly with the argument made by some WASPIS that the 'second shift' (housework/childcare) they had to do while in paid work is important to their case.

For one thing, women in the 1970s & 80s were more likely to work less hours, work part-time. Men were more likely to work longer hours, do more overtime. Obviously this was fuelled by discrimination, lack of childcare that I mentioned above.

This ties to my other point : in the 70s & 80s raising children was often less labour-intensive than today, in the sense that children played out a lot more, ferrying to many activities was less common, parental input even in primary school was generally a bit less intense than expected often today. Studies (I'll link) have shown mothers (and fathers) spend longer with their kids today, whether or not they work.

So I suppose my point is: did that many WASPI age women experience a second shift as such?
I'm not disputing the misogyny of the era often but otoh if childcare was less labour-intensive than today, and many women were SAHM, part time, and less likely to work overtime, were a lot of women necessarily experiencing a 'second shift' in the sense of spending more hours working than their husband? In this equation, housework and childcare are counted as work, as well as paid work.

Oh, I was trying to be helpful@puppymonkey The information you’re seeking is within the thread. You may have to scroll to find it, as it’s not the main subject of the thread.

Well in honestly I think childcare was easier. Just less formal. When I was very young and mum was still living there " auntie" Pat used to look after us while mum worked. And mum used to keep an eye on Pats kids while Pat worked. It was a commonplace scenario.

Same as a neighbour gave my cousin tea after school for a few quid until my aunt got back from work

I wonder if those of us who are middle aged and doing a 'second shift' caring for the older generation after raising our own families and working will get such privileges?

I’ve read the thread. I’m still not clear hence asking the question on a thread which is literally about the WASPI women’s argument. I want to know more about the WASPI women’s argument.

That's important otoh if on average women were more likely to work part time and less likely to do overtime, maybe in some cases hours of working husband+wife who did housework & childcare as well as paid work were more equivalent?

I know a lot of the time wives did do a lot more.

Yes, my grandmother's BFF had that tea kind of arrangement- nice. It helped that my mum was friendly with her kids.

Hang on though, WASPIS were born in 1950s. So they would have come of age in 1970s and 80s when at least some of those things were there

My mum is a WASPI (born 54), worked part time (mostly night shifts so she would still be around in the day for us), did all the cooking and housework (dad did nothing) and we the only freezer food we ever had was oven chips occasionally, everything else was cooked from scratch. My parents actually spent a lot of time with us (dad too, not just mum), we played cards a lot, went out on family bike rides, had lots of days out, sure we entertained ourselves but they also played with us a lot. So my mum did have a demanding 2nd shift but part time work made that easier (but also made it much harder for her financially when the goalposts were moved, though she changed to full time when we were grown). We did have a washing machine, dishwasher (until my brothers broke it and it didn't get replaced) and a chest freezer. We also had a lot of different people stay with us over the years, some will have been helpful like the girl that lived with us for a year when I was a baby and helped with childcare and some caused more work like the teen mum and her baby or the exchange student that lived with us for a year.

Thankfully my mum has always been fit and healthy so was able to carry on working when her pension age changed, even though she was obviously very annoyed about it.

Wow, so many replies! I'll reply to some now & check back later on too. Agree with pp that the topic is more interesting than the question I started with.

Different arguments have been made, but one I have seen several times online is that WASPI women had a second shift & that the earlier retirement age was a kind of compensation for that. It's questionable whether that was actually the intention of it though.

You’re being unfair. My mum retired in 1996 so it didn’t affect her but in the 70s and 80s many women like her worked full time. She didn’t drive or have a car, was effective a single parent and had to do all the housework, childcare, DIY and everything else. We had a basic washing machine and that was it.

This. And my DM was born in 1939, older than the WASPIs. Household appliances for housework haven't changed that much since the 1980s. Yes, she had a twin tub not automatic washing machine when they got married but that was 1960s.

My DM was from a working class background, always worked apart from when I was very small and was always aware of pension and making provision for her retirement, so I don't buy into the arguments of those 15 years younger not knowing all this.

I agree definitely that more time with kids is not a burden! It's more that I think there's more pressure now for that extra time to be on activities/improvement etc this isn't necessarily bad but it is more intense at least in some ways.
Re costume making, was this then a big thing often? I haven't really heard much about dressing up days at school, of course this would have varied though. I thought there might be more now with stuff like World Book Day but otoh now there's more options to buy costume.

I talked about dressing up costumes up-thread. Happened quite a lot in my childhood yes, mainly not formal school ‘days’ but parties, school discos, Halloween (yes we celebrated where I was, parties especially). Made other crafty things too. Very Blue Peter papier mache, egg-boxes and paint. Hand-sewing, lots of effort all round.

But I’m addressing the argument you make in para four of your OP, that parents being able to spend more time with their children, demonstrates a bigger ‘second shift’ now. I think you’ve got this completely back to front.

Parents are able to choose to spend time with DC now, whether opting to use that to ferry them to activities or not, because they have more free time.

Whereas in the 70s/80s much more of mothers’ time was expended on the physical tasks associated with running a household. That’s why they had less leisure time available to spend with their dc. Less money too, as food, clothes and basics were relatively more expensive.

We had my mother's old twin tub that you had to drag out of the cupboard and attach to the taps, with the drain hose over the sink. Then when it had washed you had to lift the soaking wet washing out of the wash drum into the spinner, really hard work. You couldn't exactly just put a quick wash on it was a major operation.

I LOVED the twin tub. Would have one now if i had room.

I was born in 1959 and my mum used a mangle! She didn't ever have a washing machine, so sheets and towels were hand-washed or taken to the laundrette. Life was definitely not easier!

The spinner was very good, and you could do things like adding washing or taking bits out as you went along, and using the same water doing the white lightly soiled washing first (would be very pc now). It wouldn't have been bad if it could have been plumbed in, and it did take up half the kitchen when it was out.

I’m a few months outside the younger waspies. Early 80s married with 2nd hand twin tub till it packed up so spent Sunday evening at “the Bendix”. Most things were 2nd hand or gifts. Got my first auto machine in my 30s. What a joy thst was!

My mum had a top loader and other things but as newly weds didn’t have any spare money, and they’d already gone through all that when they were first married.

It was My grandmothers generation that had it tough - I remember a mangle outside (mind your fingers!!!). There is an assumption that women then didn’t work but my grandmother worked various low paid jobs to make ends meet. With several kids and men who probably did nothing in the house she must have been exhausted. She also unpicked old jumpers and reused the wool, and darning was quite the fine art.

I don't want to be unfair: I know many women did have to work extremely hard.
Otoh the WASPI generation as a whole we were around 50% SAHMs for most of 1970s. This dropped through the 1980s. 1/3 of UK women overall were working part-time in 1970s- this probably included quite a few WASPIS.

My grandmother was still using one in early 70s- definitely difficult.

Otoh your mum wouldn't be a WASPI, WASPIs are women born in the 1950s. You would a be WASPI generation, not your mum.

You are stating your opinions as fact. My grandchildren do not do as many out of school activities as my children did. I feel this is normal. You feel it is the other way. Neither of us have proof! Prove it before you present it as a factor in an argument.
I could not have put my children in front of the TV on any other screen because there was only 1 hour of children’s TV on every day. I did not own a video player until my children were quite old.

And presumably you understand that women who had children in the 70s didn’t choose to stop working outside the home. The scarcity of childcare made it a necessity if you had children below school age. I went back to work full time when mine started school because I hated every second of being stuck at home with no adult company and no money.

Not sure how old you are as I have said upthread DM was born '49 so older than the youngest WASPI and I was born '76 so I am guessing similar time frame. There was kids' TV every evening from 4pm until 6 and saturday morning when I was at primary school. Also no one really cared if we watched other stuff ( Zeebruge, Chernobyl, famine in Ethiopia, the gravestone AIDS ad- all viewed beforeI was 10).