Male friend sees romantic relationships as transactional and thinks lower and middle class men should go to Asia to find wives

[Primrose86]

I am 33 and have been married for 10.5 years with a 7 month old son. When we married, my dh was a poor student and we supported each other through unemployment, burnout/sickness, family drama, 3 year stint of living with his mum in our 20s (to save a deposit to buy a london flat) etc. There has been times when our disposable income was great and we could afford lots of holidays and weekend breaks plus overpay 1k into our mortgage. Other times less so.

My friend is in his early 30s and is convinced that women only like rich men (he thinks my dh is rich because he has an income of 75k which isnt that amazing in London). He thinks that another guy we both know (let's call him Friend A) who has been unlucky in love, would be much more successful on dating apps if he wrote ' I have a mortgage free 2 bed house in North London, no student loans, a car paid for in cash and am a lawyer'. All true BTW but of course Friend A is still single and has been single for most of the 11 years i have known him. He thinks that it is because Friend A is much too modest about his money or the women would all be lining outside his door.

Is this why so many younger men struggle now with relationships. Cos they have this view that they need to be the provider and women are only attracted to providers. He thinks love marriages are the minority. And says he would encourage all lower and middle class men to go to Asia to find a wife cos they have more economic power in Asian countries. When I tried to counter with examples, he thinks I am in denial and cited that men in the top 20% of the income quintiles are mostly in relationships but most in the poorest quintiles are single (i think personally its because higher earning men can afford to go on lots of dates which increases their chances; also attributes that command a higher salary are also attributes valued on the dating market like charisma/emotional intelligence).

Its honestly quite warped because most married men are not millionaires and marrying someone solely because they aren't high earning isn't even that lucrative anyway given frozen income tax thresholds and also job insecurity (many HENRY jobs can be lost during redundancy or are very high stress leading to burnout). Also this is based on the assumption that he will share his money with you...

YABU.

This should be an ex friend. He's an incel.

"London is a different place now"

But still full of people for whom £75k is an unachievable dream. And who don't have family money.

Men in the highest income quintiles are significantly more likely to be married compared to those in lower income brackets

Women in the highest income quintiles are also more likely to be married than those in lower income brackets.
People in lower income brackets are less likely to be married and more likely to be cohabiting.

He is of the opinion that most young men are single and cant get girlfriends as they have no money. No idea where he gets this data from but there is a ft article on the global relationship recession.

However aren't a lot of people in their 20s in and out of relationships. I am in my 30s now and that was the case when I was younger, I was one of the few who had settled down

He thinks most marriages are for convenience/superficial attraction/money and that western women are more shallow than Asian women as they are exposed to 'instagram lifestyles'. Apparently the instagram lifestyles are so far beyond the experience of Asian women.

Why are you still friends with this misogynist, OP?

This "friend" sounds revolting. Probably why he's single.

He doesnt sound like an incel he sounds logical, practical minded and self aware about the realities of “romance”. Countless women from Asian, Eastern European and other low income economies actively advertise themselves for a “rich” white man from the West for a better life. And good on them. The romance component is way down the priority list.

your friend is an incel and racist to boot. Yuck

Why are you friends with or even listening to the misogynistic ramblings of an incel.
The reason that many men of all ages are single is because women dont need a man to buy or rent a house, can open their own bank accounts and earn as well or better than men, so we are looking for men who will pull their weight when it comes to "wife work" and childcare etc unfortunately most of these men like your "friend" are considered lesser because they're misogynistic twats and women would rather be alone than be with someone who doesn't value them as people or deserving of respect.
In short he's the problem not the women.
Your other lawyer friend should maybe look at the type of guys hes friends with as if they're all like the misogynist then thats why hes single

He sounds like a racist incel.

That said it probably is easier to find a relationship if you don’t have money problems, in the same way that every aspect of life is easier if you don’t have money problems. That’s not because women only care about money or expect to be provided for (although a small number do, just as a small number of men only care about looks and expect to be the provider).

He's been brainwashed by the incel culture, Andrew Tate etc. It's very worrying and im not sure what can be done. I expect it of teenage boys but a man in his 30s? He is obviously deeply insecure and has latched onto this. This toxic masculinity bullshit is so damaging to women but also men. Everyone loses.

100% this. Why would a woman who can take care of herself financially get involved with a man who is going to make her life harder by not pulling his weight at home?

Well he sounds a treat - grubby misogynistic little red pill incel. Grim creep. I couldn’t deal with being friends with someone with such views.

Absolutely 100% 👏👏👏👏

Most self respecting women would rather be single forever than date a misogynistic incel

Why on earth are you friends with such a wanker OP??

There's a few things here. Firstly, your husband's £75K DOES put him in a small minority of high earners, so whatever you may feel about the challenges of living in London on that (which I'm sure are real), that fact remains that a man on that income will appear rich, and as having more options dating-wise, to a man on half that. (Or put it this way: think of how hard it is to get by in London on 75K, and then try and imagine how much harder it would be on half that - or less. And then put yourself in the shoes of a man on a low income trying to attract women and convince them they can have a good future with him.) The fact that our economy is being rewired around the difference between even high incomes and "family wealth", with the latter being the thing that really matters, is a separate issue.

The other thing is that I notice a lot of this rhetoric about money-focused women and "hypergamy" coming from manosphere sources in the USA. It seems to be a huge assumption of American social discourse, where it seems like there are still a lot more people (maybe in some states or demographics?) aspiring to the traditional idea of the male breadwinner and female SAHM. Tradwives, Christian conservatism etc. I read this stuff and think about relationships of people I know here in the UK and it just doesn't make sense. Most of my friends' marriages have the woman earning more than the man, and there are varieties of working + non working, part time etc. that are mostly just gender-blind. I'm not saying everyone's like that and I'm sure there are some women anywhere who marry for money, but it's certainly not the norm the way incels would describe it.

I think it's a cultural thing, with some men in the UK now buying into it due to the influence of US-based internet media.

OTOH a good many women aren’t interested in unambitious/lazy/workshy men, either, let alone would-be cocklodgers.

he is outright saying that it is a function of evolution that women look for higher earners because we want to feel protected and in a capitalist society higher earners are 'protectors' like wtf

Which bit of this seems wrong to you?

It sounds like he’s started from some sensible premises and then either: I) he’s over-generalized it stupidly (“all”, etc.), or II) you’ve written a caricatured version because you want people to agree with you.

Sounds like he’s either always been a misogynistic incel or he’s been radicalised by porn and the internet.

either way he’s not be in my circle any more.

Its not that its challenging to live on that for us, I am stopping at one child and have a mortgage of 1282 for a 2 bed flat, its just that the idea that it is worth attaching yourself to a man for this modest lifestyle is laughable because that is what it is without family wealth in the south. And my dh had what many men in London dont have, he is a 4th generation londoner which meant he was able to live with his mum during undergraduate and first 3 years of working life while commuting to the City and not needing to own a car..london salary plus no car costs meant we could save 60k in 3 years and buy a flat in London in our 20s. Tbh we married early 20s so were able to pool our incomes in our 20s. We also benefited from 2% mortgage rates. The income is maybe only 1 factor in our lives today, the rent free living and 2% mortgage rates also played an equal role. If he was just a guy with a 75k income that would not buy him any standard of living in today’s economy. Thankfully my dh is more than his income, he is also trustworthy and collaborative which is why I trust him enough to pool our money and figure out how to build our life together (2 heads better than one).

Yes, absolutely. Why would we get involved with someone who doesn't bring anything to the table, and just makes our lives harder?

Its not a caricature, I am copy and pasting.

Being higher earning doesn't buy you a luxurious standard of living anymore on its own, the people I know who have a great standard of living are either on 100k to 150k plus each or they have lower earnings but a lot of family help. I hardly know anyone who hasn't had gifted money towards a deposit, even dh and I had rent free living for 3 years in our 20s

So he's a bloke working for the council/junior civil servant, earning about £100 a week more than an Uber driver - who can't get laid - and is likely expecting you to pimp out your friends or cousins to him because you appeal to his racist sexual fetishes if this attempt at impressing a woman who probably doesn't exist doesn't get him what he thinks he is entitled to?

He's giving off extremely small dick energy there.

At least you know why he is single!

Has he seen this modelled in his parents

Some people do enter transactional relationships. I had a friend who only dated rich guys whose were less attractive than she was. She then lived off them. She married some older guy after 6 months of meeting and made sure he put the house in her name too before they married.