To ask, if you’re a teacher

[Playingvideogames]

How many children in your class are diagnosed with autism or ADHD?

I often see the ‘1%’ quoted, but my anecdata is a lot higher than this.

This isn’t a value judgement thread btw, I’m truly just curious to see the responses and if they align with the ‘official’ statistic.

It's hereditary, so at least one of the parents are likely to be ND. People with undiagnosed and untreated ND tend not to have good careers, even if tbey are very bright. Also, tbey often get fired, end up in prison or with drug and alcohol problems.

I’m a teacher. Out of 21 in the class there are 5 with a diagnosis and in my opinion 2 that don’t have a diagnosis but I suspect they are

I think that’s an awful lot of explanation to dismiss what is basically a very blunt instrument. Yes it’s a straw poll, yes I’m aware of the limitations of that. But really, it is very plainly obvious that far more than 5% of school children have either been diagnosed with ASD/Adhd/both, or are on the pathway. A figure less than 5% is not something that anybody’s reality seems to reflect. The official figures are clearly not keeping pace with the ever increasing waiting lists, or the number of people diagnosed.

I feel like there are a hardcore of parents who get very irritated if anyone suggests the diagnosis rate is increasing, because they somehow feel it casts aspersions on the validity of their own child’s diagnosis. That’s not what’s happening here. We’re simply talking numbers. If all the responses said they have a child with diabetes in their class, we would be having a very different chat. But because it’s neurodiversity, there’s an awful lot of outrage and attempts to paint the entire thread as a statistical outlier, attracting this, attracting that, probably made up, etc

I suspect apart from my son there are two other children who are non verbal autistic in a nursery class of twenty. Maybe one or two others as well. Personally you can't predict what a child might have so don't have any if you don't think you can handle it.

the traits of a neurodevelopmental condition such as ASD and ADHD can be very similar to the impact of trauma and neglect which is more common in those areas sadly

3 out of 20 seems quite high, but I guess that just follows the theme of the thread. If you consider the other children may also be diagnosed but later on due to milder presentation that could be even higher - and likely will be. Out of the autistic children I know, one is non verbal at age 6, although I know ‘of’ other non verbal children locally but have never met them IYSWIM

I agree. I was brought up in a very highly abusive household and struggled a lot to concentrate at school, I felt constantly in a state of fight or flight. I honestly think I would be diagnosed with ADHD if I had been at school now.

@Playingvideogames me too and that followed me into adulthood. I made some very questionable life choices until I worked out what the issues were.

To be fair both autusm and adhd include 'and the symptoms arent better explained by a different mental health disorder' aa part of the criteria (slightly paraphrased) so they are supposed to be checking that.

Im not saying that is failsafe. But I do know some adopted children struggle to get diagnosed with anything other than attachment issues even if they likely have adhd . Although Fetal alcohol syndrome is something you often find only in adopted chilren as parents arent keen on that conversely.

You cannot clearly tell anything from 183 responses, when there are 29,000 schools that 5% is wrong. The DfE/NHS aren’t making stuff up or hiding numbers. Those are the number with a diagnosis.

Im not offended, I am struggling not suggest you are a bit thick. I agree there has been an increase in diagnosis. I think that is a good thing.

It isn’t possible to count all the children on pathways or waiting lists.

You still haven’t specified whether you want numbers of autistic and adhd, or ND (more than just autism and adhd) or all SEND?

In my daughter’s class it is 90% because she goes to a specialist provision.

It's very interesting. It's almost as if being neurodivergent is actually fairly typical isn't it. So begs the question why we can't set our society up to cater better to the needs of half the population?

I am struggling not suggest you are a bit thick

I’m done with your snotty, deliberately-missing-the-point responses, thanks for posting though.

I am not dismissing it, because it does tell you something, which as I said is the range of experiences. You are right it is a blunt instrument but you say you are aware of the limitations of straw polls - the major limitation is that they are not especially accurate and should not be over-interpreted.

I do agree that if you take just this thread into consideration it seems as though more than 5% is likely, but as somebody else said, more than 5% what? You keep mixing up numbers - more than 5% autistic would be surprising, more than 5% ADHD + Autism not especially, and more than 5% SEND is not surprising at all because SEND is "officially" at 20% anyway and has been going back in reports right to the 1970s.

I don't need any validation of anything personally, but I do think that, collectively, we need to be careful around the subject of the validity of these diagnoses, because despite scientific consensus, it appears to be an alarmingly widely held view that they are some kind of conspiracy, or massively inflated because they are somehow desirable e.g. as an "excuse", and this is damaging when such views are held by people who have real influence over policy - members of local government who are responsible for funding decisions, teaching staff or management in schools, or even higher up in the government, as seen in the US.

I am very happy to talk numbers, because I also find it interesting, but I am not especially interested in rehashing all the old chestnuts like ah it's the environment - they just need to be let out to play a bit more etc. I mean sure, that would be great probably for all children, I would fully support more outdoor play in schools, but lack of playtime doesn't make a non-ADHD child into a child with ADHD. Or this idea that because we are now catching many more children and hopefully gaining a more accurate picture of prevalence that this is some kind of runaway train which needs to be stopped before 50% of the population have it - that's not an accurate picture at all and that becomes obvious as soon as you look at the actual context for these "skyrocketing" rates the papers like to talk about. Or look at properly researched studies/surveys, rather than going on vibes.

I would be really, really happy to have a discussion about numbers where the myths which are stupidly easy (but time consuming) to disprove don't even come into play at all, but weirdly enough when you get people who have gone past those myths and understand how it actually works they also don't seem especially worried by numbers.

not a deprived area - 1000 students - I would say between 20-30 % are ND. High numbers of ASD (previously Asperger’s) increasing numbers of girls with obvious ASD traits (whereas previous generations may have marked)

Many are undiagnosed but the diagnosis pathway in my area is 2 years so many do not manage to achieve diagnosis. A number get a private adhd diagnosis but (those who need it) can not then access meds which is a travesty.

It's funny isn't it, on reflection I had a friend who probably had arfid so would likely get an autism diagnosis. He did well in school, despite some bullying, and had a good group of friends. Wasn't sporty but was in the top sets. He's been very successful as an adult. Has strong friendships, a wife, kids and a good career. Would a diagnosis have helped him? I can't see he needed help with anything really other than maybe getting a wider variety of nutrients.

Why is autism more lightly in a poor area I thought it was more lightly if parents or siblings have it but what dose it have to do with where you live?

5 EHCPs already awarded across a Reception of 60 children. All awarded for ASC. All non verbal. All with a wide range of needs.

A further 17 children awaiting ASC assessments.

My school is in an upper middle class small town.

OK so just some numbers from this thread.

I went through and counted all the responses which actually stated what diagnoses were. Discounted any "suspected" or where it wasn't stated or general SEND numbers or where the person was referring to their child's class rather than their own class. Discounted posts where a poster referred to a specific class they remembered or were aware of at their own school, but didn't mention what the average or their current class was.

The average of all these for autism specifically is less than 10% which granted, is still higher than the 1% but it's not 20-40% as claimed. I do think it's likely prevalence of autism is higher than 1% BTW. I don't know whether 10% is accurate, but it could be explained by some of the biases that people who know more about survey technique have explained.

I also counted all the responses stating they had 1 or 2 in a class, there were 8 of these responses. And actually despite OP's comment that "nobody said 0% or even 5%" - 1 in 30 would be less than 5% and this was reported by several posters, and I think one or two referred in passing to classes which have 0 even if it wasn't their current cohort.

At what point does neurodivergent become neurotypical.

@1000StrawberryLollies yes mine struggles with exactly that - making things up. its incredibly frustrating as im telling her theyre asking for a reply not the literal truth - they dont know how old your siblings are or what film you like.!!

There clearly is huge amounts of overdiagnosis. Particularly asd. And these are not even always kids that would previously have been aspergers.

i dont in our case even understand why the parents thought the kids were autistic. They have no social issues and were in pact relatively popular. In some cases i think its related to possible adhd signs or dyslexia.

Our y6 is now at least at 10% diagnosed asd.
I think the misdiagnosis comes from not really asking about the other asd issues (things like sleep or food or independence)
Some dyslexic kids may have poor understanding of social cues or could irritate other kids through misunderstandings.

An aspergers child would likely have a very different life outlook from a non verbal child. So its important to understand the level of disability.
if you watch child genius it looks like several of the kids would now be diagnosed autistic.

Obviously an element of social contagion in terms of going for diagnosis.
But also how much are the asd type behaviours spreading through a class. (And adhd). If kids cant socialise well then its harder for kids in a small class to make friends. In our case reception was very poor in terms of helping kids socialise as well as playground staff not ever intervening. Fewer collaborative games on the playground to my generation. And in homes most kids have their own screens. Effectively removing need for compromise.
Although i would expect more contagion of adhd behavour vs asd. (That does seem to happen at secondary).

I think one of my youngest’s friends may be asd. He never eats the food anywhere. Never had the FSM. Plays with the girls over the boys. Dislikes sport. Plays computer games a lot. Likewise another girl in class would get very anxious at parties, have to be in charge - prone to tears etc etc. And so whilst these kids arent struggling at school, i wouldnt personally say they fall into typical either, but wouldnt be in any of the stats.

I think the whole Merlin saga shows the more accurate picture of asd/adhd diagnosis. The numbers /% has to be very high to get this level of backlash. And for the numbers of RAP to be making a difference on a say 60min queue.

Clearly there is an inventive to get diagnosed
extra exam time
DLA
possibly extra help at school
EHCP and picking a school
removal of benefit cap.

To be honest the 5+ year wait in our area is hugely frustrating as we dont give a crap about any of that but our dc is very severe with sensory issues and some behaviour and i think working is going to be very tricky.

The list for prioritisation is ridiculous as its lack of speech, school or family breakdown. but means a kid could be 2 and unable to speak because of age but anyway others stuck on the waitlist from before the kid was born…

Also seems they cant actually differentiate asd vs fasd so how does everyone feel the costs of sen if in future say half of asd cases were actually from alcohol?

See my thread here @Playingvideogames

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5473963-are-you-aware-of-the-amount-of-senadditional-needs-pupils-in-class?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Clearly there is an inventive to get diagnosed
extra exam time
DLA
possibly extra help at school
EHCP and picking a school
removal of benefit cap.

All these are based on needs, not diagnosis. You don’t need a diagnosis for any of these and not all who are diagnosed will be eligible for the above.

Thanks. Why do you think the official stats are so low versus the lived experience of what appears to be every teacher?

In my last class of 32, there were 8 SEN children, some very severe, and only 1 with any support.