Just smacked my child - unreasonable to ask for help?!

[13MAPARTHELL]

My 5 YO has ASD, PDA.
he has no delays in speech or communication.
there are some weeks, where his behaviour is absolutely unbearable. Hitting him is absolutely not acceptable and I am very ashamed. When I say unbearable, he calls me names, talks back and will tell us to ‘fucking shut up’ every time we speak, repeatedly target his little brother and be violent toward him. He will refuse everything, all while hysterically laughing in my face, he will wake at 3am, eyes open and first words ‘i want to kill my brother’ or ‘i hate you im going to punch you’ and then at night, he will get out his bed repeatedly just to laugh at us and call us names.
if you ask him to stop doing something, or you become upset he will push harder. If you take something off him, he will become violent and smash everything up.
the weeks he is like this, i feel like its not my child its someone else and sadly I feel like i absolutely despise him and being around him. Its a massive part of him however, and sometimes its just one week with a few weeks break and others its 2 months.
unable to find triggers for why it works like this.
its patience testing to an absolutely insane level, every bad behaviour that is a parents nightmare, amplified.
if i leave him to ‘calm down’ I have to take my other child, then they dont want to go back in there, then they have a meltdown and im trying to not have anybody sleep with me because they get excited about it and dont sleep, and less sleep means im more angry!

fucking HATE my life

every time i ask for help i get shut down

sometimes we let a FUCK out when he splits his 3 year old brothers lip.

He only plays with year 6s - always has played with older children, they have more patience with him and dont cry or become upset from his rough play etc.

sometimes we swear, its hard not to with the stuff we have to deal with, obviously we do try our best but it’s extremely difficult it just comes out when, you know hes smashing my house or attacking someone?

That sounds extremely hard OP. I have one with ASD but not PDA so these are things I would try or that worked with mine but he wasn't nearly as challenging so may not all be helpful.

Do the two kids have separate rooms? I would do whatever I could to make that happen if they don't already because your eldest really, really needs his own space and coming home and being alone for a while might really help him.

I would meet him at school every day with a drink in one hand and breadsticks in the other. If you come home in the car then i would have a story playing of whatever tv show he likes for him to listen to in the car while eating bread sticks.

I would avoid asking any questions or talking about anything that needs to be done when you get home. When you get home I would let him decompress in his room alone for as long as he liked and not ask anything of him - I'd actually even consider putting a little table and chair in there so he can eat dinner alone in there if he wants.

I would have his room as set up for what works for him as much as possible - lots of lights or very low light, maybe a tent bed, weighted blanket, bean bag, things he can chew on/chew toys, maybe a blow up punch bag - obviously you can't just go out and buy them all but they're things i would consider for birthday's/Christmas if appropriate.

I would have as much of a routine as possible as I could everyday so he knew what to expect. Every morning have as much set out and ready to go as you can so that you don't have to ask him to do anything. So instead of 'you need to go and get dressed now' you can say 'did you see that I put all your clothes out on the chair ready for you'.

You could put his breakfast out on his table in his room so you don't have to tell him to come down for breakfast - anything that might make his and so your life easier. If you don't have a little table then maybe a lap tray could work.

I would also try to spend a set amount of time at the same time every day doing something 121 with him. You more of a bond he has with you the more he will want to please you. Have that as a routine every day at 4:30 or whatever half an hour where you do something together, then half an hour with your other child (unless they are able to do something together with you).

At first let him choose what you're going to play, let him control it, let him make up the rules - just join in with his game in any way he wants you to. If he wants to race cars round his room with you do that, if he wants to build train tracks do that, if he wants to make towers out of blocks and knock them over do that, if he wants to play dinosaurs do that. Then you can slowly start adding your input, suggesting things to do together or things you could add into his game - but if he says no then that's fine. It's really about building connection and having fun with each other .

If you need him to do something then I would always say give him lots of warning before any transition. I used to do a 10 minute, 5 minute and 2 minute warning sometimes. Just having that time to finish what he was doing and get his head in the right space to do something else was really helpful for ds.

I really think professional advice is a great idea though - you are certainly not unreasonable to ask for it! There should be so much more freely available - we got offered a badly photocopied book list when DS was diagnosed! I wonder if it's also worth asking his teacher that has a good bond with him if she has any strategies that she finds help with him? She might have some ideas. I also think an NVR course sounds like a really good idea.

I hope things improve for you soon.

This is another issue

he cares for NOTHING he is that strong willed, we have brought him things, for him to care about but he will smash or break it before we get a chance to remove it.

he’s diagnosis reports ‘special interest in hurting’ he told them he likes hurting

He pushes back so much it’s incredibly hard he does not respond to discipline, he thinks hes boss and he wont accept even meeting me in the middle

Is there CAMHS involvement here? If not, it sounds like there needs to be as this situation is unsustainable and not safe for your other child, or you as he gets bigger.

Tbf, I think I'd have smacked him too, especially as it did end the confrontation. I'd rather that than have it continue to escalate to the point where you or his brother get hurt. If it was just behavioural, I'd say perhaps it should have happened sooner but if there is any chance that there is some kind of disorder or syndrome in play, that changes things. Is there anyone at the school who would help you push for an assessment?

If not, I'd consider approaching social services and asking for support. Tell them you're at the end of your tether and have had to resort to smacking him. You won't be in trouble, smacking is currently legal in England but it will highlight the fact that you are really struggling here.

You have to be the squeaky wheel, don't take no for an answer, do not allow yourself to be fobbed off. Stress that he is extremely violent to his brother and other children as well as to you. I would also consider covertly filming some of his worse behaviour to show his school. If he is masking there, they may not be seeing the full picture. You need them on side.

I feel for you. My youngest is ND and before diagnosis, she was difficult. I have to manage her much differently to my older 3. Don't get me wrong, she doesn't get away with anything, it's not an excuse,l for poor behaviour, but she does better now we know her triggers and how to help her cope. But those early years were a nightmare trying to straddle the line between discipline and escalation.

She can't be allowed to behave like that but giving consequences mid meltdown is pointless. She isn't taking it in, she cannot regulate and it just makes things worse. I have to restrain or interrupt the meltdown, wait for her to process, then come in with That was not acceptable behaviour, we do not hit people, insert consequence. Mostly it works and the older she gets, the more reasonable she is getting.

Just try not to be hard on yourself. Ypu're dealing with a lot. One smacked bum in an entire childhood isn't the end of the world.

Would a different type of shock help him snap out of these behaviours? Obviously, you can't smack him again but the shock of it appeared to bring him round. A really horrible loud noise from your phone or something? Admittedly, I have no clue.

Didn't want to read and run; i voted YANBU because I 100% would have smacked him too! I hope you get some help soon OP this sounds horrific 😢

With our DS the best way to cut down on dysregulation is to have no response and no noise. If he pushes DD and she screams it makes him a combination of excited and further dysregulated.

OP this is what was happening to my child. They couldn't do it once they moved to KS2. Fell apart, school refused and now no masking.

Before my child was 6, I was referred to Home-Start. They were helpful. You can refer yourself if you one in your area.

Your so right, my 3 year old obviously screams we are trying to teach him to respond differently, its getting better in that he runs straight to me and it gives me a chance to then push other child away, i do sometimes have to push him, even then i feel bad but he goes in HARD

like he uses ALL his strength

We did once squirt water at him like a cat 😂

but this also feels abusive?

I cant imagine life like this. Im sorry and I dont have any knowledge but why does your other child have to live with this? Hes in danger. Isn't there any type of facility for him where he can be cared for away from his family?

hes been ok today, this morning was awful and i practically dragged him to breakfast club

its really hard work its not ALL the time, it wont seem like it but it has actually gotten better id say, and im faster with my reactions in stopping him from hurting his brother, i of course do not always get there in time sadly

we signed brother up to self defence classes and hes learning to block etc himself and he absolutely loves it, they are baffled at how passionate and serious he takes it considering hes only 3, its really so sweet 🥹

rooms have been seperated, thank god & we explain to his brother that its NOT normal but his brother is going through some things and some differences et

but its a constant fear, we are teaching him to be tough etc, which is sad

me and dad have split, still live together & kids dont know, but when they do / we are considering splitting time with them each

Oh I really feel for you, this is so so hard and my DC has / had some similar issues.

It's so hard not only learning how to parent a pda child but to deal with the judgement and lack of understanding from others.

I will tell you that he is much better at stopping himself being violent now he's a bit older.

My advice:

1. Do what you can to support yourself and look after yourself. Make sure you have me time. This is no.1 for a reason.
2. Look at NVR courses especially if you can find one specifically for PDA
3. Join all the PDA support groups
4. Consider if his behaviour got worse when he started school / nursery
5. Don't underestimate the impact of other external factors eg sensory issues and diet. Hunger, thirst and needing the loo all big triggers for us
6. I'm sure you do this already but remove as many demands as possible. Drop all expectations. Pick your battles carefully

Good luck x

Feel for you. I have a SEN teen who has always been hard work but he was only violent btw 12-14 y old (puberty). You need respite ! And your son needs to see a psychiatrist. He does sound like a psychopath (without judgment- just how you're describing his behaviour) and your family absolutely needs help. Would probably be good if your stbexh moved out with son so you can stay put and protect the younger sibling. It's horrible to say- but children like that have no empathy and can commit violent acts. So so sorry for you- It's not your fault- he was born that way and all you can do is help him by getting him help early on because he will be scary to be around when older.

I don't think any facility is going to be willing to institutionalise a 5 year old. While his behaviour is incredibly challenging, he's still a very small child. He'll have a much better chance of overcoming his difficulties, growing up in a family setting with secure parent/carer attachments.

In the meantime, I'd keep the kids separate with stair gates or room partitions and tag team parenting so there's always someone watching him.

I would recommend taking the 3 year old to another room and shutting the door. Even if he kicks and shouts don't answer. It will add less fuel to the fire. It may take quite a few goes though.

ETA we considered doing "nesting" as we wanted to stay married but the DCs were better with just one parent and also needed time apart. Things got a lot lot better so we didn't but we were considering renting a one bed with a sofa bed for one parent with or without our younger child.
Also, for the reasons I've explained I don't recommend low demand parenting. There are good reasons why it doesn't work.

You poor pet. My friend was in A&eE yesterday with her mother and was sat beside someone with similar challenges
The woman was there for hours and then suddenly got up and walked out, leaving her child.
She didn't return.
So sad.
My friend was interviewed.

Are you a mental health / personality disorder professional?

If not then I don't think you should be telling someone their child is a psychopath.

My DC used to say disturbing things when he was younger not dissimilar to OP's child, as he's got older he has got better at expressing himself and no longer says them. He doesn't display any of the typical traits - he's incredibly empathetic especially to animals, remorseful if he does something wrong, isn't manipulative and doesn't tend to lie.

It's not uncommon in PDA for children to say extremely shocking things or threaten violence to avoid a perceived demand and/or try to get control. The simple act of waking up a child, or them feeling the expectation from you to wake up and get up, might be enough to trigger it.

Did you read my poster? I said "He does sound like a psychopath". In no way was I saying he was. And I encouraged the OP to seek psychiatric help for him. Taking pleasure in hurting other people is not a normal behaviour- and he's manipulative enough to not do it in school- but starts as soon as he's out of school. It's very worrisome- and in no way did I judge the OP or her son- I said they urgently needed qualified help because this can/will escalate. I'm a former SW and I have seen rare cases with children from "good enough" families (no neglect/abuse that could explain things) showing traits of psychopathy/sociopathy and 2 of them comitted attempted murder on family members so no laughing matter. Why this has to be seen to now before he grows up being bigger, stronger and more calculated.