To think people over 80 should not drive

[TorridAntelope]

I don't care how bright and sparky they are, the stats show they are dangerous

Seriously? My dad is 83. He’s a bloody marvel, up and down ladders fixing his roof, runs 5 miles 3 times a week, is always pootling about on his narrow boat and plays in a band and does solo gigs and sets up all his own gear. I’d argue that my dad is more on the ball and fitter than you are op.

Although there is some data showing that pedal confusion happens in older demographics and smaller people. It can also happen at any age, for example this 39-year-old woman in a 4x4.

https://www.itv.com/news/london/2022-07-26/woman-pressed-accelerator-instead-of-brake-before-hitting-children-at-school

or this 67 year old woman https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tourist-hit-accelerator-brake-fatal-35390671

Or this 40 yr old bus driver https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/15776387.bus-driver-pushed-wrong-pedal-mowing-pedestrian-reading-pavement/

interestingly, some cars are having systems implemented to prevent this sort of thing happening and will be law in all cars in Japan by 2028

Dig into the stats and it's actually the opposite. If you break down the accident figures by mileage, time driving, number of journeys, then the elderly have more accidents per mile or per journey or per hour than younger drivers. It's obvious that 20/30/40 year old drivers will have more accidents as they're (as a group) drive more, i.e. daily trips to work and back, school runs, etc etc. My son works in one of the UK's biggest insurance firms as an actuary and works with the statistics on a daily basis. He's got hundreds/thousands of spreadsheets that break down the accident statistics so knows what he's talking about.

He’ll also tell you then that the younger aged drivers tend to have more expensive prangs than older ones which is another factor in why their insurance is higher.

The problem is coming up with an objective test where the cost for implementation matches the benefit to society.

The problem is that at the moment the situation is far too woolly. People deciding for themselves that they can continue driving, doctors and relatives taking some peoples keys away but not others.

We could start simply by having an eye test code, that everyone over 70 has to validate their eyes every say 5 years. This is not so onerous anyway as people generally have to have their eyes retested and glasses prescription renewed on that timescale anyway.

After testing your eyes it produces a code that the optician can send to the DVLA which validates that licence to drive. Anyone driving without a validated licence gets their licence revoked.

Simple stuff to start off with and then build on that with things like reaction testing.

I agree having the results of eye tests reported back to DVLA after 70 is fine but you have to understand there are quite a few young and old people who need glasses for driving but don’t wear them for vanity reasons. 🙄

I also think black boxes would help insurance companies temper their premiums for all drivers.

Reaction testing is already built into eye tests when the puff of air is squirted into your eye and it makes you jump. The optician who did my last one actually commented on the speed of my reactions.

You can never stop people breaking the law.

People could send in someone else to sit the test for them for example.

But, if there is not a rule in place, then there is no standard to judge by.

And if someone is found breaking the rules it allows even more severe penalties to take place.

Doesn't sound like a very objective test to me, and may well test reflex action speed which is not the same as cognitive reaction speed which is probably more useful in assessing driving capability.

The air puff test is for internal pressure which can signal glaucoma. Nothing to do with reaction times. It’s an auto-reaction not an indicator of one’s reactions to external events.

I think the comment regarding the speed of reactions was about how quickly the previous poster blinked which is a bit frustrating for the optician because they have to measure the length of time the cornea returns to normal and if one blinks they lose the measurement and have to keep ‘puffing’. Either that or their cornea(s) returned to normal quickly which is good but, again, not a measure of their reactions to external events.

It's fine so long as they have been screens for dementia and have up to date eye exams

It was a throwaway “Wow, your reactions are fast”. I wish I hadn’t said it now, I (foolishly) wasn’t expecting it to completely derail the thread.

Do you have any idea what dementia screening involves and how expensive it is ?

@grumpygrape yes my dad has Alzheimer's. I know it's pretty quick to get a referral to the memory clinic. At that point driving should cease until proven otherwise.

Personally I'd rather people were not driving about with dementia and a risk to themselves and others.

Do they? I thought young men between 18 and 25 had the most accidents?

I see no reason why a fit and healthy 80 something with good eyesight and reaction times should not drive. What's your reason, other than simple uninformed ageism?

That's nothing to do with reaction times as a pp said. It's to see if the pressure in the eyes is too high and needs further investigation to rule out (or in) glaucoma (which by the way you can still drive with, although if it's in both eyes you need to tell the DVLA).

I think if people want to drive an SUV they should have to do another test. It doesn't seem good passing on a Nissan Micra and then driving a tank.

But you really don't need lessons to drive an automatic - you just need to start somewhere quiet like an industrial estate on a Sunday while you get used to it. Took my son about 10 minutes to get used to mine after passing his test on a manual.

Ageist. Some older people are less good, but so are other people.

I think there should be a physical test after 80 as the ability is vastly different and it's a difficult decision for people to remove access to cars from elderly relatives.

My grandad drove until his late 80s. At 80 he stopped driving long distance and from 85 he didn't drive out of the town. He was an ambulance driver for over 30 years and one of the best drivers I have ever been in a car with. He voluntarily stopped driving after getting pneumonia and he lost a lot of strength quite quickly. He was mental sharp right until he passed away but his physical health never recovered from the pneumonia. He told me mum not to worry he would hand over her licence before she would ever feel like she would need him to ask him too. He stuck to his word but I know quite a few where it has been difficult to stop an elderly driver from driving even when its very clear that they shouldn't be.

There's so many conditions or health experiences where you are told to not drive until you feel able to and I think it's too ambiguous and people go back to driving too soon. I know two people who went back to driving too soon after health issues and had to stop again, how many are returning to driving when they aren't ready to do so safely?

I'm 63. Over the last few years I've noticed that headlights dazzle me more than they used to & that I have to work at judging speed & distance in the dark. So I don't drive in the dark or bad weather anymore. I'm that elderly lady who tucks herself behind a lorry on the motorway & is happy to drive along at 60mph.

I would support a mandatory refresher session perhaps using a driving simulator once I reach 70 & every so often afterwards to check that I'm up to date on current highway code, my reactions etc before my driving licence is renewed.

But, since my DH has had to stop driving for medical reasons, we would be rather stuck living in a rural area where it would take us 2 buses (& about 1 hours travel each way) to get to the doctor surgery for a routine appointment, be unable to drive to our DCs houses to babysit, popping out for a a loaf of bread on public transport would be an hour's journey, rather than 10 minutes each way car journey to the village shop.

However, I accept that there is likely to come a time when I have to stop driving & will have to use the money that my car costs me on taxis & make better use of internet delivery services.

Hopefully by the time 🕰️ get to 80, there will be safe drive cars & I can stop owning a car and get a self drive car instead, just when I need it

I've only read the first and last page of responses and wonder if i am the only one to agree with the OP?
Very old (85+) drivers are a dangerous menace on the road. My dad gave up reluctantly at 87 when he wrote off his car by leaving the handbrake off and my sister and i point-blank refused to take him to look for another.
My mum regularly gets in a car with a 92-year-old driver who mounts pavements ('anyone could do that') and an 88-year-old who once drove off while she was half out of the car. I have made my feelings known.
Having an absolute cut-off would mean they couldn't convince themselves they were fine or make excuses about carryong on long after they safe.
Another bonus of an absolute cut-off would be to concentrate the mind of all these pensioners living in the middle of nowhere will get around. Without a cut-off they can kick the can down the road but if they knew they would definately not be abkevto drive after 80, plans would have to be made.

@katypp the driving off also happened in Dawlish, my mum was in the car shouting stop, stop and it took far too long to actually register with the driver. I'm pretty certain she kept driving for years after. The 90 something who used kerb assisted steering to get to her home up the hill was only stopped at deaths door.
And there are buses, trains, taxis....it really doesn't lack for public transport.

That whole area out from Exeter train line along the coast is really well served.

With my PIL it's far too convenient for them and for their kids to have them still driving in the suburbs, 5 miles from a train station. And the ego tied up in not trying new things even if they'd help, from basic walkers to electric scooters. They've spent the last 20 years bitching about old people and now infirmity is upon them, accelerating due to not wanting to be seen to be old.

Hmmmmm,

Pretty quick to get a referral, well, yes being referred wasn’t the problem, getting to be seen by the Memory Clinic took about a year.

First set of Memory Clinic tests (I could bore for Europe on how inadequate they are), nothing wrong, come back in a year.

Second set of Memory Clinic Tests, feedback was only ‘getting older’ problems, despite me specifically asking if it could be MCI/Mild Alzheimer’s, answer, no definitely not..

None of the Memory Clinic investigations included any scans; just stupid (in my view) questions.

Three months later OH was invited to take part in a drugs trial for Alzheimer’s. When we asked why he had been selected for the trial the answer was ‘because of his diagnosis’. What diagnosis ? Mild MCI/ Mild Alzheimer’s, Errrrr, no, the feedback was, there’s nothing wrong, just old age memory problems. Cue serious egg on face, backtracking, sorry, you were told the wrong thing.

After MRI and PET scans, paid for by the drug company, his Alzheimer’s was conclusively diagnosed. Three years after it should have been.

Interestingly, despite informing DVLA, he continued driving safely for another four years. Alzheimer’s doesn’t always mean a person isn’t capable to drive. DVLA and drug trial doctors were content for him to continue.

Sorry for the rant but even the lightest of Memory Clinic sessions would not be financially practical for everyone over a certain age and won’t be conclusive. Just being referred to Memory Clinic by a GP should not preclude someone from driving.

@grumpygrape I get where you are coming from but if you are undergoing investigations related to your memory you shouldn't be driving. If you want to drive over 70, get your eyes tested and answer the standard questions for dementia screening at the gp. You don't need to follow up with the memory clinic if you don't want to but yif you want to drive you should.

We were lucky, my dad was seen at the memory clinic within a few of months and diagnosed following scans 6 weeks after that.

Getting him to accept not driving has been probably the hardest element. He remembers he can't drive but doesn't accept it. It would be extremely helpful if there was more clarity on this especially before diagnosis is complete.