Dodgy Church Pastor

[observant79]

Since last year June I have been attending a church local to me in Leicester and think the Pastor runs it like his own personal business. AIBU to think that a charity/religious church shouldn’t be run by a range rover driving, designer clothes wearing, council house living, 3 trips a year to South Africa taking, no other job/jncome having “man of God”?

I can’t help but feel the charity commissioner needs to investigate this man.

The church ks completely run by him and his wife and they collect tithes and offerings weekly and emphasise no one will be blessed if they don’t give to the church.

Why are you giving us this phone no, OP?

Only you know the name of the church and the pastor, so only you can make the call. You have the evidence.

We can help you work out what to say.

Police, write a summary of what you have said here. It really does sound like fraud.
Try a local journalist, a real one who checks sources, publishes in print not a wannabe who puts garbage on Soc Media.
Do both OP. Journo will be pleased if it develops into a court case.

OP,

Start by going to the Charity Commission website to see whether the church is registered using the tips above.

Please let us know the answer

Blessed by God, not by him.

He's trying to make his congregation think they need to give him money or God won't like them.

Well I don't see what the fact he may live in social housing has to do with it?

But yeah, if you suspect he's dodgy report him and stop going. But be careful. I don't want to sound dramatic but he may have links to crime and criminals and might try and scare you away from ruining his dodgy plans.

Not anymore, search with what’s been provided and you can find out trustees and financial info in seconds.

If people are silly enough to think God looks at your giving before deciding to bless you that’s on them. If it is a registered charity they need to submit accounts and annual report - the Charities Commission tend to be on top of places that don’t make regular submissions.

If Trustees aren’t having regular meetings or seeing financial accounts they’re in breach of their duties and need to deal with that. Assuming everyone involved are adults they need to take responsibility for their choice to give or not give. While tithing is actively encouraged, it’s still a choice of what to give and who to give it too - and whether to attend church or not.

The congregation are probably either people who've grown up with this sort of church so think its normal or who are a bit vulnerable

He literally says you will not be blessed unless you give to this altar and this church. Word for word, three services a week.

he’d be getting told where to shove his “blessings” and swiftly reported to the charities commission if I were you..

it’s clearly shady AF not to mention deeply unchristian….

Here's a breakdown of where the money goes:

THE ALPHA APOSTOLIC CHURCH

Okay, I found the ‘church’ on the Charity Commission website.

They are claiming annual expenditures significantly in excess of what they claim to take in. Someone might be interested in this. But it wouldn’t be against the law for the pastor to have an inheritance, for example.

The statement of purpose is waffly. I am enough of a cultural mainstream Christian to find it, together with OP’s description if a coercive element to the giving, highly distasteful.

Some PP are correct that all religions encourage - and need - donations - but when it slides into coercion, it has raised a red flag.

OP, I think there is enough to be going on with. PP’s idea to contact a journalist is good. Or the fraud squad, or perhaps Citizens’ Advice in the first instance. CA could advise on your best option.

It won't be a C of E church. C of E priests have a salary and aren't called 'pastors'.

Hi OP, I'm a Christian and am really disturbed by this. Being blessed by God is not linked with giving money. After the pandemic, I was looking for a new church to attend and found one near me in the UK, run solely by a married couple of pastors and there was a whole section on the website about the expectation of giving 10% of one's income. I think this is in line with some churches in the US but it is not an amount I can afford. I found a nice, quite formal Anglican church where there is a collection during a hymn and a pouch is passed down the church with no expectation whatsoever to give. Some people give and many don't and both are fine.

I would urge you to leave and find another church.

Dodgy as fuck.

tbh I don’t think any religious organisation should (more or less) be considered to be a ‘charitable organisation’. They should only get taxpayers money for activities which truly benefit their communities. There’s a local Buddhist organisation who do organise their finances on this basis - they don’t expect the general public to subsidise their ‘internal’ activities.

but that’s a wider discussion - this particular couple seem to be committing financial abuse.

Def not Cof E. Some bizarre self defined thing, Inthink.

Brilliant post, @CraftyGin

So, it appears there was a stipend to the pastor last year of nearly £30K. How does that compare to CofE?

Charges for phone and internet of over £3K for the year seem high. My bias is showing but I would happily bet the pastor is charging the phone he uses for personal calls to the church.

Travel costs of nearly £20K and vehicle costs of £25K are very high, also television costs of £30K seem high to me.

Perhaps others closer to the sector can correct me.

Go to one of the many legitimate churches in Leicester. If they are affiliated to or part of a wider organisation there’s more safeguards. Even within the Church of England there is a wide range of worship styles, you should be able to find one that suits you and you will be reassured that there’s a lot of oversight, far more than in the past I should add.

The thing about 'Just join another church' - don't people go to church because they believe in what they're told at it? I thought it wouldn't be as simple as 'Hmmm the subs for the Pentecostals are getting a bit steep, might throw my lot in with the Quakers for a while, but then again the Methodists are just down the road so it would be convenient...decisions decisions'. Obviously I'm being flippant there but it is a genuine query - if you (rightly) don't believe the stuff this transparent con-artist is saying, then why are you going anyway? And how can you just choose to switch to devoutly believing another strand of Christianity instead?

The stipend to ministers in the Church of England and Methodist Church is about £24,000 per year.

Thanks, @LaurieFairyCake

So it looks like the travel, cars and potentially television are way out of line. Several of other items aren’t exactly economical but they aren’t outrageous.

OP just move church - there's bound to be other non CoE churches in your area if you don't like that one. Just stop going, if anyone gets in touch just say you don't want to go any more. The more you engage with it all the more headspace it will take up.

I have South African family members and find their attitude to religion more overt, more about objects, more demonstrative, more about God intervening directly. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if the trips are being justified to reinforce a different cultural norm.

In the CoE, the Vicar's stipend and housing is funded by 'parish share'. This is money paid by the parish to the diocese. This goes on to fund all the ministry costs and pensions, staff in the diocese, parish support etc.Our church has a parish share of about £130k. DH and I give the full tithe, as well as lots of unclaimed expenses, time and talent.

The compelling part of tithing, is what it enables the church to do with the money, eg fund children's work, do work in the community, basically spreading the word. It is hard to commit to a tithe when you are just paying for basic running costs.

30k to the pastor on this thread is not a lot of money to live on, pay for housing and a pension - but there are other things there, such as a car allowance.

Not registered for Gift Aid is a huge red flag for me.

Well just the charity number identified the name of the Church. Their accounts look as dodgy as feeding 5000 people on a fish and a few loaves & still having dozens of baskets left over afterwards.

The Pastor's allowance of just under £30k doesn't strike me as huge if being the Pastor is his only job.

Things that do stand out to me:

Vehicle costs- this suggests the trustees have purchased a vehicle for the Pastor. Is a Range Rover an appropriate vehicle? Has his wife's car also been purchased by the Church? Did he take part in the vote to buy himself a Range Rover?

Insurance costs- these are very high considering the Church rents the building it's in and it's described as a Church Hall as opposed to 'Medieval Church'. What insurance is being paid for? I wouldn't be surprised if it includes vehicle insurance (although that would be reasonable if the Church owns the vehicles, the question is still why it owns something as expensive as a Range Rover).

The television costs- Does the Pastor produce TV and radio broadcasts for Christian networks?No income seems to be derived from this, which from a trustee point of view I would question- where is the income going if not back into church funds? If there is no income, is it a good use of funds?

Travel Expenses- £17.5k. Where are the Pastor or other Church members going that means they run up such significant travel expenses? Are those trips legitimately linked to the work of the Church?

Overall I'd say governance appears quite weak. The trustee who told you they haven't got a clue what's going on should probably stand down- ignorance won't be a defence in law.

Living in a council house and having a caravan in Skegness are immaterial.

Why are you still going? Clearly this is not an above board operation. If there is a wider organisation you can complain to, I suggest you do but I suspect it is an independent outfit.