'Taxes are the price we pay for a civilised society'

[Bargepole45]

Having just paid an enormous tax bill, I frankly am fed up with hearing this. There are lots of civilised countries that have a far lower tax burden than the UK. It's just a form of blackmail designed to make contributors believe that there is no other way other than to pay sky high taxes to subsidise people's crap life choices.

Have too many kids and can't afford them? No problem, the state steps in. Have a terrible lifestyle and don't look after your health at all? No problem, the NHS will treat you. Spent all your money with wild abandon and have nothing left to pay for your care when you get old? Don't fret, the state will fund the same care home as someone that has saved all their life.

Don't people understand that these 'safety nets' just facilitate reckless behaviour? We can have a civilised society where people aren't cushioned from all of their bad decision making. I say this as someone from a background where I didn't have much money and I am so fed up with people pretending that poor people don't know that an apple is healthier than a chocolate bar or that it's a good idea to actually attend school. It's insulting and disempowering to keep making excuses for people that simply aren't incentivised to make different, better choices.

Thank you. Threads like these always risk getting a bit nasty but I firmly believe that we should be able to have a sensible and mature debate without resorting to name calling and insulting each other. Too many people want to shut down discussion because it is a sensitive topic but I believe that allows extremism to fester.

We both earn high incomes and don’t claim anything for our ASD ADHD child as we can cover the costs ourselves.

@Bargepole45

Well when one of the “people you know” shares their opinion on a situation that they actually live and understand, perhaps I’ll take it more seriously.

Whilst it’s still coming from a place of judgment of a financial and personal situation that you’re not in, I think it’s best taken with a pinch of salt.

A quarter of the population is disabled. You seem cynical about the fact that I know disabled households but almost all of us will know them and have friends and family within them. Unsurprisingly they don't all have a common view on political issues and it's weirdly insulting to them to suggest that they do. They are people just like everyone else.

You are making judgements of people's personal and financial situations that you are not in too. They are just different judgements. You are not living an identical life to anyone else just because you share a common, quite broad characteristic like having a disabled family member. This can look completely different in different households depending on all sorts of factors. You don't have perfect knowledge and neither do I.

Maybe she can afford to but not many others can! Although I query a church that is asking for that sort of donation from someone on benefits

The problem at the moment is the tax burden is too high a people are not seeing the benefits of their contributions.

Every year it's more tax and public services get worse, it's got the the stage where working in some instances just doesn't make sense, people don't want to earn more due to tax brackets as are heavily penalised.

People are starting to leave, or like my DH taking early retirement as there is no incentive anymore to increase earnings.

I don't have issue supporting people that need it, there just needs to be reform of public services, the wastage in government and local councils needs to be addressed, it's can't be just a case of throwing more money at everything.

Could you live like a king on £730 a month?

No one NEEDS to live like a king and certainly not a benefit claimant. Anyone who wants to live like a king should sort it out themselves.

Chill out, I’m not saying they SHOULD live like a king. Of course they shouldn’t. It was in answer to all those people who state that they are all living like kings - drive a Range Rover, take three holidays a year, etc.

I would have thought that was obvious.

But some do live like kings off PIP because the costs associated with their disability are minimal, where as for others it’s a drop in the ocean. Makes no sense at all.

Are we, DH and I are high rate tax payers, there is no way we can afford to go part time, all of our friends early - mid 40s are in the same boat. Nobody is thinking that a life on benefits would help their circumstances and be more lucrative, literally nobody. Colleagues who are closer to retirement can't afford to go part time. I understand this is anecdotal but this sounds a bit made up.

Very, very real situation if one of you earns over £100k and you have kids in nursery. Even if you don’t have kids in nursery, if your marginal tax rate is 62% and student loan repayments are 9% you are only getting 29p in every £ but paying out £££ in afterschool clubs, why not go 4 days a week?

So presumably you would suggest that each benefit recipient’s household expenditure is analysed to ensure that after money has been spent on accommodation, utilities, clothing and food that the remainder is repaid to the public purse?

The maximum PIP is £749.80. “Living like kings” is a bit of a stretch.

Yes, the £100k cliff edge is crazy. It's a huge disincentivise to progress at work, grow your business or work FT/extra hours. You only need to look at Doctors and Consultants in the NHS to understand how this can impact working patterns and productivity.

It is also a gateway benefit to removing the benefit cap which can make a huge difference especially with large families or for families living in areas with high housing costs.

I am always puzzled on MN how many people insist that high earners are 'lucky' to be earning as much as they do so they shouldn't begrudge paying tax as they will still be enjoying a great standard of living whilst claiming that the same amount of income in benefits wouldn't fund a great standard of living for those families.

As someone who receives HR PIP, who used to earn 5 x that pre disability, I can assure you, I am not living like a King. In fact my £749 per month doesn’t even cover the costs associated with my disability, I live in inaccessible and unsuitable housing, and I am not leading a life filled with luxuries.

It’s actually a massive stretch.

You are failing to account for the cost of disability. Yes it is high with no additional costs. You aren’t comparing like for like.
I hazard a guess most people on here wouldn’t think £80k was a great income for a working family of 8 (these six kids you keep citing).

These disabled people with minimal costs will also be minimal needs. You need to be severely disabled and unable to do pretty much anything for yourself to claim high rate PIP, so let’s assume they’re on the lower rate (which is a huge assumption as you have to be extremely disabled to qualify for PIP at all, but for the sake of this debate I will concede that they’ve lied about their illness to fraudulently claim PIP despite the need for robust medical evidence).

They’ll be on £100 a week. If they are severely disabled they’ll get £188 a week.

If you think you’ll get more on benefits that paying high rate tax, you can always give up your job for £188 a week and live like a king!

Not a bad idea really. After all those who aren't working full time have time on their hands so have the time to fill in expenses claim forms and provide evidence of their spending.

The cost of disability isn't a universal figure. For some, disability will not be hugely expensive at all. It also needs to relate to only one household member. So the family I know has a dad with anxiety. There isn't a great deal of additional cost associated with this condition for him. He wouldn't work even if he didn't have anxiety as none of his siblings or parents do. The idea that most pip recipients are paying for expensive wheelchairs etc just isn't factual. Mental Health is the biggest category for PIP claims. Some of these conditions will have high costs associated with them but many won't.

People on here might not think £80k for such a large family is a lot of money but the tax system does. It will treat the earner in the household as a high earner and will strip them of their Child Benefit and place them in the higher rate tax band. I think the fact that most people on MN don't actually perceive you to be wealthy would be cold comfort as you watch a substantial money taken from your pay cheque each month to effectively fund an identical family that isn't even working.

And would we then analyse the type of food bought - must be purchased from Lidl? House can only be heated to 16 degrees..?

Why are you so affronted by the idea that people relying on state support should seek to spend their money wisely and sensibly? It's what most most people on low incomes have to do. Growing up my parents weren't on benefits but our food always came from cheap supermarkets and we had the heating on sparingly.

Some people don't think they have to live like that but then the money runs out before the month does. Sending their children into school hungry and relying on food banks whilst they had gone to the pub a week before and spent money on holidays. If you think this isn't happening then you need to mix more. I literally know if someone that just this week is off to Mexico and before Christmas they were begging for money because they could afford a Christmas dinner for their kids.

Apologies as I haven't time to read the whole thread but just to stress that taxes aren't just to cover 'safety net' type services - they are to pay for the myriad of services that enable our economy to function - the background services, infrastructure and democracy without which nothing would work, including businesses.
OP have you seen the Scandinavia series by Simon Reeves? Really interesting discussion about a different relationship with tax and the pay-offs in terms of lifestyle, life expectancy, happiness ratings etc (for the wealthy as much as anyone else)

You are cherry picking stats. Yes there are figures that show the highest condition on pip is depression/ anxiety, but that doesn’t mean it is only depression / anxiety. I have anxiety listed on mine, my anxiety is caused by the barriers in the world due to my disability, if I was magically cured tomorrow, my anxiety wouldn’t be enough to award me PIP.

There are very few people who are suffering with anxiety alone receiving PIP, and it would be incredibly hard to meet the criteria if someone does and is being truthful about their needs.

@Bargepole45

I’m not affronted in the slightest that people on benefits should spend their money wisely. In fact, I’d wager that the majority of people on benefits spend their money VERY wisely, because they have had no choice but to. I suspect they don’t need any lessons on budgeting from people who have no clue.

I am affronted by your (and others’) attitude towards people on benefits. I’m affronted by the ascertain that the majority are lying, lazy, feckless and irresponsible; also by this crazy notion that you seem to have that they’re all on £80K a year.