'Taxes are the price we pay for a civilised society'

[Bargepole45]

Having just paid an enormous tax bill, I frankly am fed up with hearing this. There are lots of civilised countries that have a far lower tax burden than the UK. It's just a form of blackmail designed to make contributors believe that there is no other way other than to pay sky high taxes to subsidise people's crap life choices.

Have too many kids and can't afford them? No problem, the state steps in. Have a terrible lifestyle and don't look after your health at all? No problem, the NHS will treat you. Spent all your money with wild abandon and have nothing left to pay for your care when you get old? Don't fret, the state will fund the same care home as someone that has saved all their life.

Don't people understand that these 'safety nets' just facilitate reckless behaviour? We can have a civilised society where people aren't cushioned from all of their bad decision making. I say this as someone from a background where I didn't have much money and I am so fed up with people pretending that poor people don't know that an apple is healthier than a chocolate bar or that it's a good idea to actually attend school. It's insulting and disempowering to keep making excuses for people that simply aren't incentivised to make different, better choices.

You sound like a pleasant person OP.

So what happened? Do not you prefer to be there?

Thank you. That means a lot.

What's child allowance?

In any case taxes are high here and it is not working anyway.

Child Benefit

This is what is disgustingly happening in this country. People do feel entitled to other people’s money.

No, I'm not entitled to Child Benefit. Not sure why that's relevant though?

It ceases being “other people’s” money the second it’s deducted in tax, when it becomes the government’s money and not the money of the person that earned it.

This is false ...you know that right?? It's created to drive division
People aren't living the life of Riley on benefits. Only Daily Fail readers believe that.
Watch I am Daniel Blake, that's a more representative telling of life on benefits
There is a benefit cap in place and the only time that raises is in families with disabilities.

As someone who has just done a degree in psychology and child studies, poverty is extremely complex with many compounding factors. Very few people choose it cos they're lazy and can just "live on benefits" and breaking the cycle takes a tonne of funding that the previous government refused to spend, in fact they refunded everything proven to help, such a sure start centres. I am no Keir Starmer fan, but at least he in bringing back policies to help families, such a breakfasts and a replacement for the sure start centres that were closed.

The benefit cap is lifted if any person within a household qualifies for a disability benefit (PIP or DLA) or someone works 16 hours at National Living Wage. Once the cap is lifted then it is totally possible for a family with 6 children to be raking in the equivalent of a salary of £70k plus a year. Would you consider someone on such a salary to be wealthy and living the life of Riley? The government obviously does and makes them pay a higher rate of tax and removes their entitlement to Child Benefit. Funny how you are so adamant though that this same net income paid to someone on benefits wouldn't fund such a lifestyle. It doesn't make sense does it?

Also I grew up with these kinds of families and won't be lectured about child poverty. Some people definitely do choose to live a life funded by benefits. Of course it isn't perfect and you can argue that all sorts of factors influence this decision but isn't this true for all of us? How many of us have true free will and choice? Did the person stuck working 40 plus hours wiping arses and managing dementia patients actively choose this life for themselves? What about the person scrubbing toilets all day? Some people would rather take the easier option and live on benefits. It might not be a choice you would make yourself and of course it is intergenerational in the same way that you have families of doctors and lawyers. People have a lifestyle they like on benefits versus working some hard and difficult job and seeing very little financial reward for it. I think it's patronising to not see that on many ways the system has made their choice a valid and sensible one for them as individuals.

No. I wouldn’t consider someone with £70k between 6 children and potentially two adults to be “living the life of Riley,” regardless of how they gained that £70k. I wouldn’t assume that £70k would give any family of 7 or 8 a decent standard of living. I wouldn’t try and care for 6 children out of £70k, and I doubt you would either.

Some people have chosen to wipe arses, and it’s incredibly condescending to think otherwise. My sister wiped arses, she found it very rewarding. The palliative care HCA’s who cared for my father in law, said “you only get one chance to give someone a good death.” There are people, who like their manual jobs, their “menial jobs,” and their factory jobs, and find it as fulfilling as we find our higher paid jobs. Looking down on people is not a flattering trait.

The government considers a family with a £70k earner to be living the life of Riley. They will tax a decent portion of that income at 40% and remove their Child Benefit. If they protest then they will be told that those with the broadest shoulders must pay their share ... People on MN will say that they are greedy to complain as they must be earning a lot to pay a lot of tax... And so it goes on.

Not many people actively choose the careers I mentioned. This is why there is a chronic shortage of workers in the sector and we have historically used workers from abroad to fill vacancies. They are badly paid and often have poor working conditions. I'm not looking down on anyone. I'm merely pointing out that quite a lot of people doing these jobs aren't doing them out of free choice. They haven't had the choice of lots of careers and vocations that are generally considered more desirable and chosen that one. Your sister and HCA may be part of the minority that felt drawn to that work but it is just a demonstrable fact that not many people are.

And how many families with disabilities and 6kids do you think exist in the UK?
You realise this is all absolutely rubbish created to increase divide right?

You probably have every right to feel frustrated as someone who works hard and pay a shit tonne of tax, but you are angry at the wrong end of the scale.
The money is being channeled to the super rich, not the poor.
Passive wealth is what should be taxed up to the eye balls. The money made off of simply owning assets and having money sat in bank. And massive corporations like Amazon who bully out smaller traders, pay crap wages with no benefits and then award disgusting amounts of money to their CEO's.
Stop punching down at those worse off than you, who do you think is paying for all the airtime and articles to keep the minute amount of benefits claimants who might be getting too much for money for doing nothing?? The people who want your anger facing in the opposite direction.

You can't really blame people for not wanting to work 40hrs at a shit job and still not be able to afford to live. And for many that is the only option. Cos the don't have the upbringing/skills/education/intelligence to do anything more..

Also how quickly did we forget that is was minimum wage workers we most needed to keep working during COVID...

No government official has ever referred to someone who earns £70k as “living the life of Riley.” I know the financial implications - that’s the exact tax bracket I’m in, and I’ve never felt victimised by that. Maybe because I don’t complain about it, in fairness.

If having £70k in benefits is reliant on having 6 children, one of whom is disabled - which is the example you gave - you couldn’t run a household of that size, with that income, and have anything that resembles the life we have without as many mouths to feed.

I think you probably know that, by virtue of having a salary on/above £70k, and not having six kids.

I imagine you don't want six kids but what if you did? Do you think someone who doesn't work or works very little should be better off than you in that scenario? That's the point. You would get no child benefit, no UC and be whacked with a massive tax bill. The number of kids you had to support would be deemed irrelevant as it would be assumed you earn enough to support them, yet when we talk about cutting benefits for this group we are told that this will lead to children starving and having terrible lives.

The family don't have to have a disabled person to not be subject to the cap. They can just have one parent working 16 hours earning NLW.

The argument is true for families with less children too. 40% if families subjected to the two child cap have a disabled family member. It's really not that rare.

Taxing the rich is a massive red herring. If it was possible then more countries would do it. Look at how wealthy taxes have worked. Look at what happens when you discourage investment through increasing CGT etc. If you tax big corporations then they move to Ireland and other more favourable countries. It really isn't easy to do and certainly isn't the golden bullet you want it to be to avoid people 'punching down'. Incidentally I hate that phrase. Ok not punching anyone. I simply want some people to act more responsibly and contribute what they can. I actually think it would be in the individual's interests in the long term as well as the state's. Working is good for people. This has been proven time and again. People though don't want to work and are drawn to the path of least resistance.

Why stop at 6, @Bargepole45? what about families who have 48 children and get £8.6 million in UC? My God, I get so irate sitting at my keyboard imagining these theoretical feckless couples who probably don’t even exist. In fact, it fills me with so much hatred that I feel compelled to spew my vitriol at every single mother of one, who’s working 40 hours a week on minimum wage and struggling with rent and childcare. It’s not fair that we pay tax so these snivelling little brats can eat!

Why are you angry about imaginary gigantic families with fictional disabilities? We don’t need to make up situations to be pissed off at, surely.

One of my neighbours has 4 kids, it’s not quite 6 but it’ll have to do. They both work, I’m gonna knock on his door tomorrow and ask how he feels.

OP I agree with you.

The country is in a proper old mess.

Our systems were built when as you say we had less people, who died quicker etc. However it was also a time when people would have been embarassed to claim benefits or 'be on the dole' and so everyone had a job. Those that lost their job would try very hard until they got another one. Therefore only those in genuine circumstances got help and there didn't seem to be too many of them. Most people had a lower standard of living and that was just normal.
So most worked and paid in and that supported a small number in genuine hardship.
Now there seems to be more shame about working than claiming benefits. It's like a lifestyle choice, fleece the system, don't be a mug. So as you say there is a smaller and smaller pool of people working and paying tax and a bigger and bigger pool of claimants.

The NHS I guess was unable to provide such complex treatments in the past so costs must have been lower. Also less people in the country. However there was also an element of people 'not wanting to bother others' and 'stiff upper lip' and all that. Now I'm not saying that was right but now we do seem to have flipped the other way with people screaming 'I'm entitled to get an ambulance for pretty much ridiculous reasons' and no common sense at all. There are absolutely issues in the NHS now - I for one struggle to get an NHS appointment with my GP and have in the past had to go private. However the entitlement of people now, combined with everyone being overweight and not taking responsibility for themselves is drowning the service. Not to mention the time wasters who miss appointments etc

You are absolutely correct. The safety net has turned into a complete piss take and the more people see this, the more they think well why the hell am i working hard and paying tax when nobody else is. Like you say they think why save when I can just get pension credit and my rent paid anyway. Lack of personal responsiblity.

There is threads about this quite regular. There was one a few nights ago when someone suggested making the safety net very basic so people would definately not prefer that to working. She made some really sensible suggestions about a basic roof, basic food and working for your basic money. She got shouted down with calls of bringing back the workhouse and of course the old favourite 'what about the disabled children, will they be dying in the streets'

The UK has spent the last 30-40 years closing down it's industries, selling everything off including council houses and our gold. Now the shop is running empty with nothing left to sell. Wealth has been a sort of fake housing pyramid with everyone's house going up and up in value but of course that is just paper wealth and we are not producing anything.

Add in the fact our credit rating has gone down and our borrowing costs have gone up and a goverment who can't get any reforms through because their own ministers won't back them. Welcome to todays UK. Debt going up each year, interest payments going up each year, less workers, more disabled kids, an older population. It's only a matter of time before it all goes bang.

The disrespect shown to the police and other emergency services by the public is just utterly shocking. Fireworks getting thrown, paramedics getting attacked, policeman getting stabbed and spat at.

We need much tougher laws and much tougher sentences to stop this spiral.
We need benefits to be reduced to very much the basics only for emergencies so people get off their arses and work.
We need to make the NHS have small fees so people start taking some personal responsiblity.
We need investigation into why so many children have got things wrong with them so we can stop it happening.

I used to vote Tory. I never voted Labour and I'm now considering voting reform because who the hell else is going to do any of the above.

There will be wailing and crying and protesting but once the first few hundred have been locked up or had their much reduced benefit cheques they will all start to fall in line. Such a shame it has come to this. The tolerant country and laws have been totally taken advantage of.

I keep thinking as well what is going to happen when all the grown ups are the children we keep hearing about with SEN. They will be the adults then who should be running the country. What will happen then with so many of them.

Very worrying. Your thread is spot on.

So what do you suggest? The wealthier in our society shouldn’t have to pay tax and should be the only ones privileged enough to be allowed to procreate? As long as you’re able to afford another holiday, it doesn’t matter about the state of our schools, elderly and disabled individuals’ livelihood, the nhs etc… Instead of focusing on where the money has been going and poor decisions made by the govt (ie the wealth gap growing massively), we’re conveniently distracted by ‘benefit scroungers’ and ‘foreigners stealing our jobs’ headlines. I’m surprised people are still ignorant to this. From someone who works and, shock horror, pays taxes.

I’m with you OP (although I think you might be trolling just a little bit!) but many people on mumsnet live in a bubble.

As a teacher in a state school in quite a middle class area I know multiple families on benefits having three+ children, correctly assuming they will get more money and a bigger council house to accommodate them all.

Meanwhile I would love a third child but even with me and DH working full time making decent money and living in a cheaper area than where I teach, I just don’t think it will be possible. It isn’t fair.

My best friend is a social worker and feels the same way I do. People think teachers and social workers are all lefties but neither of us will be voting Labour next time…

Tax avoidance and evasion needs to be sorted. Schools need to be properly funded and people need to be paid decent wages and have their workers’ rights respected and upheld. We’re not in a mess but things could be so much better if we hadn’t had austerity and brexit. The four horsemen of our particular apocalypse are Cameron, Osborne, Farage and Truss. I’ve worked solidly nonstop for 43 years: doing care work, working full time hours through my degree and teacher training, only taking 2 months maternity leave, slogging my guts out in teaching. I don’t begrudge a penny of tax but I bloody hate rich buggers telling me that they’re rich because of “hard work” whilst their “creative accountants”
help them avoid paying their share of tax. And I am sick of women who are married to these rich buggers being able to have as many kids as they want and their biggest worry being whether the nanny has worn their slippers (true mumsnet thread). Tell you what, get yourselves down the food bank and some volunteering rather than preach to the working classes about what they should or shouldn’t do.

The reason I actually chose the example with six children is because I know a family in this exact scenario very well. They absolutely exist! Are they a small minority in the general population? Yes, but this doesn't mean they don't exist. One of the parents has severe anxiety so qualifies for PIP. They are going to be tens of thousands of pounds better off now the two child cap has been lifted.

The way those children are being raised would alarm most decent, responsible parents. I have made this point before, but who has this amount of children knowing that a two child cap exists and that you are going to bring them into poverty? These are not people that prioritise their existing children or place any real emphasis on meeting their children's needs. I do what I can to help the children directly but it is incredibly depressing and not something that throwing money at families like this will solve. The fact that the government is naive enough to basically financially incentivise families like this to have even more children and they use the taxes we have all paid to do this is infuriating.

So no, I won't be made to feel bad about being furious that my taxes are being sent to feckless parents that almost certainly won't spend the additional money on their children's best interests. If they gave a toss about their children's best interests then they wouldn't have had six in the first place without the financial, emotional or practical means to raise them in the first place.

The Laffer Curve proves that you can't just increase taxes, especially on the wealthy, and raise more revenue. This is largely why wealth taxes also fail. Other countries have been there, done it and felt the cost of a very expensive failed policy. Look at the French's Impôt de Solidarité sur la Fortune for example. The damage this caused to the French economy far exceeded any additional tax that was raised. Yet people on MN love to imagine a wealth tax will fix everything without actually cutting back on our excessive welfare bill. Same goes with raising CGT etc. We have to be very careful not to distort the economy and encourage capital flight. It's literally the last thing we need. We need more wealth, more investment and to grow the pie so everyone is better off.