American expats in Europe/the UK

[expatme]

Are you as horrified and embarrassed as I am?

My point is that we all vote the best we can at the time. And those votes don't necessarily produce the outcome we want. So there's no need to bust my chops over Trump policy since I didn't even vote for him. Just like it would be unreasonable for me to press on someone for their vote in the Brexit referendum.

There have been movements in history where peaceful protest has achieved change, real change. The brave public in Iran are trying to do that right now. The Filipino people did it successfully in 1986 when Marcos was removed following the people power protests. It is possible. But these responses, that it won’t work, it’s futile, etc, are entirely the problem. America has given up. And maybe the protests won’t work right away, but wouldn’t you rather know you have done everything to remove the evil man running your country? The apathy is what makes me angry.

I know there have been some protests already in the US but surely that is a starting point and it must build and grow from there.

The comparison with Brexit is also ridiculous. Leaving the EU is nothing like what ICE is doing to Americans, literally abducting, assaulting and killing them. Leaving the EU is also nothing like a threat to invade and take over a sovereign country. Enough with the silly Brexit comparisons.

Not in any numbers they’re not. Where are the millions, every day? For a country full of bluster and supposed American might your protesting skills are pretty weak.

Only to an extent. And they should have gone on to an immediate general election. I don't think it is correct to say that the British public are less biddable than the Americans. We're not. Compared with the French, we're pathetic. If they aren't happy with employers they lock them in buildings. We just whine.

Yes. Never been embarrassed before and used to be almost proud . But now? Wouldn't even let my DS use an old beach towel this morning to wipe dogs as had an American flag. 😂

Oh, I believe in peaceful protest, for sure. And I'm not saying they don't work.

The problem is that the zone is well and truly flooded, as Steve Bannon (who, by the way, is advising Farage) says. So there's corruption, there's the hollowing out of all government departments, the civil service, the disbanding of USAID, ICE, politically motivated prosecutions, and that's just the start. It's a constant barrage of shit.

And for protest to work it needs to be focussed, organised and coherent. A million different splintered marches don't work terribly well, and, you have to keep it mind it's a heavily armed government and just itching to kick something off that will allow them to bring in martial law/cancel elections.

And 90% of the Democrats are completely useless. We call and email our (former) senator almost daily telling him to sack up. He just writes yet another strongly worded letter.

No, sadly, I think, once they're elected, politicans act mainly on their beliefs.

I also doubt many people contacted their local MP and said, 'Vote out that Liz Truss, she's a wrong'un!'

I hope you'll have proof otherwise but I doubt any MP looked around and said, 'I've had XX letters/comments, etc. from my constituants about Liz Truss so irregardless of my feelings, I'll vote for what my constituants advise, given the chance.' (TBH, she was gone so quickly that I don't think there was time for MPs to amass much evidence from constituants, I think it was mainly done on what they could see unfolding right in front of them)

I would definitely judge a Trump supporter and I wish that Americans in America would do something about him especially those with power. They just seem to be content to let him turn into a dictator. But I don't judge all Americans because I know many can't stand him either and I don't judge Americans living in the UK I assume most of those are not Trump supporters.One of my good friends is American but she now a British Citizen she isn't a monarchist but she said she would much prefer to swear allegiance to the Crown than to Trump. And I know many of her fellow Americans feel the same.

I think you are displaying the cultural differences between Americans and the British as many of us are not 'A' political. Politics is part of our cultural identity. It is really not something people shy away from so it is discussed down the pub, at parties, personally, my wedding was few days after the Brexit vote and it definitely put a downer on the day many of us understood the economic decline that would follow was going to be rough, it is covered in our Art e.g. Banksy and our music, I think this is why the reaction to such extreme behaviour from our PM just wouldn't be tolerated.

Of course they didn't. Posters on here have a somewhat rosy view of British politics. We are lucky that our system isn't quite as undemocratic as in the US, because if it was, we'd be screwed.

Don't be naive. Look what happened with Johnson!

I'm not American, but I am human. I'm embarrassed that my species has give rise to that man.

I dunno - I think Brexit is a good comparison. It’s comparing the vote to leave EU with the vote to elect the president. Not the subsequent implications of those votes.

I remember being in France just after the Brexit vote, and feeling I had to apologise for being English. No different I think from how OP is questioning how it feels to be a USA expat in uk now.

Yes, pretty much.

I think it's similar in that, in both both Brexit and electing Trump (particularly so the second time), felt like acts of national self-harm, with the worst potential outcomes easy to see by anyone who was willing to look.

I think you are wrong on that, public dismay via media scrutiny definitely played a part. It is also evidenced by the Labour uturns for the better or worse.

Democrats are not bathing in glory either. Did people forget Biden? Now the new Mayor of NY and his childish supporters and dangerous policies. They are all a pile of rubbish. It is really hard for Americans who are normal to be honest.

What would UK voters be able to do directly to remove a sitting PM? How quickly, if desired, could UK voters remove Starmer? What is the mechanism for that?

(How is politics not part of every country's cultural identity?)

(TBH, I think the UK system is LESS democratic than the US system. In the US system, voters have the option to choose anyone who is elected: city officials, county officials, judges at state and federal level, state officials, state senators and state house of reps - two kinds of MP, and have a vote for the president too. I think it's insane that the PM is not actually elected specifically by the electorate but rather chosen by the political party with the majority. No one directly voted for Starmer! but he's leading the country!)

Can you elaborate?

Well that's the point with the Liz Truss example, she was removed in part due to a reaction from approval polls.

If politics is a big part of the U.S's cultural identity why dud a reality TV star become President? Surely that suggests more political fatigue that active engagement?

I don’t think the US is more democratic. It takes so much money to run for president that the system is immediately limited to a small cohort of corruptible candidates. Lobby groups such as the NRA yield disturbing levels of power. Having elected judges, etc, means that judicial independence is tainted. The system is far more vulnerable to corruption. The UK is not perfect, obviously, we all have major problems. The ability of a party to get rid of the Prime Minister is a good thing as it makes them more directly accountable for their actions. Our Prime Minister also can’t just pardon all of their mates, nor could our Prime Minister dictate that prosecutors should go after political enemies the way Trump has done. Our Prime Minister does not appoint judges, and so our judiciary is a real check on the power of the government. I would choose the British model over the US model every day of the week.

Well, no, we vote for our MP and the winning party chooses the leader. It should be a check on not voting for a personality. Unfortunately, Johnson and, potentially, Farage have shown some people don't understand that's how voting works in the UK. I remember a vox pop after the referendum and someone couldn't understand why Farage wasn't now the PM. Anyway, that's digression.

The British aren't really known for their compliance, we admire figureheads who are anti-authority, we like satirical comedy, skepticism, in the past punk music, sixties bands like the Rolling stones, secret Raves of the 90s and it's corresponding drug culture, counter culture music, street music that explores social issues, drinking excessively, individual freedoms where do you get that we are compliant from?

Expat, sounds like you feel exactly how I did after Brexit. I felt embarrassed to be British and wanted any Europeans I knew/ met to know that I didn’t vote for it. I feel your pain.

Yes, I agree I felt the same.