Don’t know how to deal with this self sabotage from 12 year old

[Blueeyedstork]

My son is 12
in most ways he is a great son, doing well at school, lots of friends, good relationship with us, healthy, happy etc

and then comes the self sabotage, I don’t know what other way to describe it
ever since the age of about 7 he will be asked if he wants to do a certain thing like go to the park, go on a footy game. He will say yes and then just before we are about to get ready he says no.

He then waits for the last possible minute and suddenly says he wants to again. This end in tears and screaming that he always wanted to do it. We have always stood firm and said not it’s to late and managed the fall out and out consequences in place such as taking away screen time etc. anyway this seemed to stop about a year ago.

Before Christmas a change came up for some extra coaching in his sport that he does with a pro team. You go along to the session and if you think you are good enough you get picked to do a longer course. So we signed him up- all ok.

A Week ago he said he does not want to do it anymore, we try a bit to talk him round but he is adimate he does not want to go (we are not paying any money for this). Anyway yesterday he suddenly said he wanted to do it so we said ok as we really think it will do him good.

this morning DH goes into his room to get him up and DS says no he is too tired. 20 minutes later DH went in again and said last chance as we will need to set off in 10 minutes. This was 8.15 and the course started at 9am. DS again says he did not want to go.

anyway 45 minutes later DS comes running in the room dressed saying he is ready to go. I say it’s too late it will have already started. Cue total meltdown, screaming it’s our fault and we did not give him chance to get up- etc etc etc. shouting that he hates us and we have ruined his chance. No reasoning with him what so ever. He picked up a pile of clothes and threw them so the PlayStation has now gone for a week.

I just don’t know what to do, this is the only thing we have major issues with. I don’t know why he does it as he obviously wants to do the activity or outing. I have no idea what is going on in his head.

anyone else experienced this and any tips

I don't think the punishment was wrong in this case, because it was for his reaction - shouting/screaming/throwing things, rather than because he changed his mind.

Your job as parents is to prepare them for the adult world - and in a job he would still face disciplinary action if he shouted at colleagues and threw things, regardless of whether he had a 'good reason' to be anxious and upset. Same in a relationship - you don't want to teach him that it's okay to throw things and shout at his partner because they said something that annoyed him - that's pretty much the definition of domestic abuse!

Speaking to him about it when he's calmer is a good idea, like you've done now.

Maybe next time something comes up talk to him about it at the point he makes a decision 'Do you want to do X?' 'Yes.' 'Okay, but what about the last few times you've said you wanted to do something, then changed your mind? We don't want to do that again because it's stressful for everyone and might mean someone else who really does want to do it won't get a chance.'

If it had previously stopped and this newest example was due to feeling a particular amount of pressure (from MIL), then it might be something he is generally getting better at anyway.

yes totally agree that it is not a one size fits all.

For my two children who have very similar traits to the OPs son forcing them to do things made it worse, much worse.

When I mentioned the sensory processing signs it was in response to someone who said that anxiety was the only thing mentioned by the OP which isn't correct.

My DS is exactly the same, always has been. He’s got ADHD but I suspect he’s also ASD.
it’s very frustrating but you have to try and stay calm. I also wouldn’t be punishing him for it. Like a PP suggested even if he’s saying no prepare for the fact he might change his mind. Be ready to go anyway. If you’re late then it is what it is.

I'm AuDHD and wouldn't leap to assume he's ND unless he shows a lot of other symptoms. Maybe it's anxiety. Or maybe he just wanted to stay in bed for a bit longer and thought you'd make more of an effort to get him out the door.

Whether he's ND or not, I think showing him that there are consequences for this behaviour - if you change your mind at the last moment you might not get to go - is the right way to handle it.

Actually, she does. She said he has issues around food and texture - that, alongside meltdowns, issues with transitions and anxieties around new things are all screaming autism to me.

We have big issues transitioning. Things I’ve tried is lots of talk about it before - we’ve committed so we have to go. We need to leave at this time, in the past you’re tried to bail but we’ve committed etc.

Ive also tried the ‘I hear you don’t want to go but that’s the anxiety talking, lets at least go the the bus stop and if you still don’t want to go by the time the bus arrives we’ll go home’. Note this has not once been successful 🤦‍♀️

im here for other tips!

His way of dealing with panic and anxiety is to be paralysed, he can learn better ways, it's not a fixed personality trait, he's only 12.

When he's not under stress, talk to him, you are sad that he missed out because he was worried, what would help? He can't let people down or it will be more stressful next time, so you want to help him with following through on commitments and not being so worried. Getting close to the time limit is probably increasing the anxiety for everyone.

As a workaround, I'd consider going somewhere else first and then straight to the new thing, so he isn't able to just freeze at home. He puts his stuff in the car and gets ready in advance, you need him to come to the shops first, or a dog walk or anything not scary that he's got not reason to say no to.

I'd also take him when he's late though, the coach asking him about it will be closer to a consequence than him having a tantrum at home.

I think this is a good idea. Just lie about the time you have to set off.

hi, my daughter was exactly the same. It was exhausting. She has recently been diagnosed with adhd and always strugged with anxiety. She has thankfully grown out of the self sabotage now she is a young adult.

Transitions might be the issue and so routine, visuals (be that written or symbolised) and clear expectations can be very helpful for most (but as with all humans some things just don't work).

'Self sabotage ' behaviours are so frustrating especially as you know he will enjoy and be good at the experience. Staying calm in the moment is very hard as you are emotionally invested and are getting stressed out as well.

Might a visual timetable work? If he is keen he can help put it together the night before. If not, you do it for him. Generally a while day is too much so maybe break up the day into logical chunks.

First and next cards can be very helpful to break down what's happening now and can be as big or small a task as you feel works. It's better to chunk a whole task together like first shower then breakfast rather than first shower then dry as loads of tiny tasks can be overwhelming.

I have done this as an adult - not the angry shouting when I miss something but wanting to go to something and then not being able to and changing my mind through anxiety. One tip a psychologist gave me was to ask myself how I would feel the next day if I missed the event. It helped me recognise what I did or didn’t want to do.

I suspect the anger your DS exhibits is anger at himself for not being able to mentally get himself to the point of going. Punishing him doesn’t seem a rationale way of dealing with it because he is already punishing himself. All you are doing by that is reinforcing that he is bad and has made a bad decision, which he already knows.

I did this throughout my teen years and as a young adult. I'm NT. It was anxiety. Therapy helped and I'm able to manage it now.

Anyway yesterday he suddenly said he wanted to do it so we said ok as we really think it will do him good.

You’re making it way too easy for him to change his mind.
You are setting a rod for your own back.

If he had changed his mind yesterday, I would have made a big deal out of it being too late and you’ll have to ring and see if there’s a place and is he definitely sure because you don’t want to do all this to just cancel last minute etc.

But it’s also good that he does miss out because it will teach him in the future.

It is definitely anxiety but allowing him to change his mind actually makes his anxiety worse.

I always say to my DC that if they make a commitment then they have to go to the first one - if they don’t want to go again then fine.

As the old saying goes, 'Don't display your ignorance'.

Ask him twice. After the second refusal thats it, its off.
Shut his bedroom door and let him get on with it

Look up pathological demand avoidance OP, people often think that is trying to avoid things you don’t want to do, but it is also struggling to do things you do want to do. I was a lot like your son as a kid, still am when I don’t consciously make myself recognise what I’m doing is avoidance. I had the chance to train ti be a lifeguard and I would have loved it…but I couldn’t make myself do the required training and so I couldn’t do it. I always thought it was self sabotage, but really it’s about anxiety around change. Even if he doesn’t have ASD, a pda profile could be the reason. It’s something you can learn to manage if you know what it is.

As pps say it is anxiety and masking at school. Definitely don’t force him to go or punish any resulting behaviour as no doubt he is frustrated at himself or is actually having a panic attack.
If he misses activities just be sympathetic but see it as a natural consequence. I have found with DS it it easier to let him decide when he’s ready to do something with no pressure. Things have improved now he’s older.

We had this. I manage it by saying once the initial decision is made there's no changing it and not letting him change it.

Imo your giving him too much control of the situation. Mine don't cope well with choices so making them stick to their original choice almost quietens the anxiety.

Example
He committed to the pro coaching by agreeing to be signed up - you warn him theres not changing his mind. When he initially moaned you should have said tough you made a commitment your going, then ignore the tantrums. Same as this morning - you tell him to get his ass out of bed, he is doing it and to move. If he didn't get up (after pulled duvet off nd told him to shift) appropriate consequence in place for ignoring you.

This sounds like anxiety. My son has always done this and eventually we discovered he has OCD. He had severe sensory issues with food as well. Children with anxiety catastrophise and try to prevent their fears by controlling them. He cannot control what time he leaves so he is afraid of getting it wrong which turns into a fight or flight overwhelmed meltdown and guarantees the fear manifests. The key is to stop trying to control, stop catastrophising and learn that failure is okay. So you’re late. The world didn’t end. So you drop out entirely, the world won’t end. He’s still loved by you. Allow failure and show that he can move past it and he can learn to stop catastrophising. Stay calm and anchor him. Punishment is pointless if, like most kids with anxiety, he’s already a perfectionist: he will punish himself in his mind more. Flexibility and resilience are what he needs. And the courage to fail. When he stops catastrophising and panicking he will be on time. Understand that no one does their best work in the middle of a fight or flight episode. Learn breathing techniques to get through this. Listen to him to understand what’s behind this. If he has anxiety he probably wants more than anything to give you what you want and it’s his fear of failure which is making him ‘misbehave’. If he doesn’t then it’s possibly something else. Make sure he knows you love him either way.

The punishment didn't match the crime anyway, he threw some clothes in anger and now he's banned off his play station for a week? I think that's harsh

Somthings clearly going on whether it's ND or anxiety I'm not sure

This is more or less what we do.
DS says he doesn't want to do something.
We ignore.
On the day, and with loads of time to go, we say we're going, we get ready, we get his stuff ready if we think he won't.
We turn off all devices and sit in the car, again with loads of time to go.
He comes out (usually last minute Larry) and off we go.
DS has ADHD and anxiety. But anxiety CAN exist on its own and ISN'T always a sign of ND, it's just more common.

It is tricky because behaviour always seems to need a label!

Not everything is ASD etc sometimes kids just go through a pushback phase and act spoilt and unreasonable.

My DD can be like this, usually with things she really wants to do but is nervous about, she too has autism.

What helps us are visual timetables that show the event, but also the time she needs to be ready to go, and when she needs to start getting ready to go. We’ll talk through the plan for the day, who’ll be taking her, whether we can wait for her and who’ll be bringing her home. We’ll talk through give lots of time eg she’ll be up at 6.30 to leave for school at 8.30. It means she’s not rushed, can have a bit of a wobble and still have time for the thing.

We also have a general rule that says if you signed up for it, you need to do it and we model consistency and not pulling out of things at short notice. In saying that, if she really can’t do it in the moment, we’ll go with that. She needs to know she can change her mind. She and I have got much better at knowing the difference between “I’m feeling anxious and need to regulate” and “it’s just not happening today”. I also don’t sign her up for multiple things in a short space of time - one activity a week and one thing at the weekend.

Her being upset or saying she can’t go is fine, throwing things, being aggressive or violent is not. We have different ways to help her regulate in the moment, and then when she is calm, sanctions for aggression or violence. That might be helping me with a chore, doing something together that wouldn’t be her choice eg a craft or board game, making dinner together. The important thing is that it’s something you do together - so a form of “time in”, rather than time out. The aim is to build connection, and repair the relationship not to shame or punish, she usually feels enough shame without me adding to it. After all that we can start to identify feelings and better strategies in the moment.

It’s hard work but she is now mostly able to identify her feelings of anxiety, talk about it, find ways to feel less anxious and do the thing. Or identify that she can’t push through today and cancel in good time.

My son does this. He has ADHD/ASD.

As a couple of other posters have mentioned, personal experience is suggesting autism with PDA. It’s worth reading about and considering, OP.