Knowing who is dodgy

[CrimpyHairVeryGood]

Say child abusers are charming and maybe not who you’d expect them to be because they manipulate people and hide their true desires for many years - anyone know how to detect child abusers?

Asking with a view to keeping children safe as they get older…go to houses independently make more friends and spend time overnight around parents of friends.

yanbu: to think you can probably tell something not right about them if you spend time with them
Yabu:it is just not possible to tell as they are so good at manipulating and hiding

I worked with a paedophile who abused children at our workplace. Never suspected for a second, had socialised with him, would have trusted him with my children. Paedophiles groom the adults first, then the children.

There is no way to 'detect child abusers' in the way that you are looking for.

The only way to protect your children is to teach them strong boundaries and give them tools to protect themselves.
Things like using the correct words for body parts, being able to say no, understand who to approach for help and not to keep secrets.

I lived next door to one for years he was my neighbour's long term lodger. He seemed absolutely normal.. nice guy, worked in childrens' youth groups, babysat my little brother (15 yrs younger than me). We trusted him! We only found out when the police came to interview us because they thought he might have abused my brother too.
He had been abusing my neighbours younger two children for years :(

My Mum is a teacher and I was no fool, but there was absolutely nothing about him that gave us the slightest concern :(

There is no way to detect.

You don’t let random people look after your children. Or let them have sleep overs, teach them about there body’s and not keeping secrets. I have done way to much reading last few years mine don’t get left with anyone outside school and immediate family members. Kids can also be abused by other
children, cousins and family friends kids older teens baby sitters, step parents, random visitors holiday kids club staff, anyone visiting or within the homes of there friends.
close supervision lots of discussions with your kids about dangers and what to do if they are uncomfortable in any situation I honestly don’t know what to say it’s disgustingly horrible to have to think of people like that but as parents we need to protect them.

You can’t detect/tell. You can only have strong and clear boundaries, be vigilant and be confident to step out of a situation you’re not comfortable with.

NSPCC pants is a good campaign- although for younger children.

In saying that I think it’s good to not be frightened or pass on fears anxiety about this.

Child abuse is absolutely awful.

That said, Cocog, they are statistically most at risk from family members. You know you are definitely not, everyone else you can’t be quite as sure about.

It’s good for children to have friends and connections outside the home- they are more likely to be a support and resource than a threat. Groups and organisations have safeguarding procedures that you will be able to see in action. If you notice any breaches, alert the group and watch the response. If it’s inadequate take your dc somewhere else.

Do your safeguarding visibly. If you have code words for collection, little mantras about staying safe that you repeat out loud in front of others, you’ll be showing your DC are protected. If you are slack about how long they are out and who they are with, it will show them up as a soft target.

The SA of my DD occurred in kindergarten, the place where you would assume they are safe. DD spent 5 years in therapy. We will probably never find out what exactly happened to her, but the only reason we did suspect it is because we educated ourselves on what was normal and abnormal behaviour in her age-group.

We thought we had done enough to protect her (right names for genitals, no secrets etc) but the person who abused her was trusted and protected by the staff.

1 in 6 boys and 1 in 4 girls. Those were the statistics I learnt of SA occurrence in children. This could be even higher because kids generally say nothing (mine did not).

So, how do you keep your children safe?

Nice guy, worked in childrens' youth groups, babysat my little brother (15 yrs younger than me).

I would consider those pretty big red flags. Very few young men voluntarily offer to babysit and work in youth groups. Child abusers tend to look for opportunities to be in the proximity of children in a respectable position so they can earn the trust of parents and kids.

I actually think you need to look out for men who appear "too good to be true". The ones who seem to be bending over backwards to appear like the perfect father, husband, friend, churchgoer from the outside. They seem to be going to extreme lengths to avoid being judged by other people. They talk with constant name dropping or make sure people know about the good things they've done. This is also common with grandiose narcissists, so it doesn't necessarily mean CSA, but you still don't want to get too close to narcs.

Another subtle red flag is the behaviour of their children. Some children have a "tired aura" about them. They rarely smile in photos. They may not be extroverts but they are very social and tend to cling to friends and clubs because it means they're out of the house. They have behavioural issues in school that aren't directly related to diagnosed ND or SEN. Listen to your child when they tell you stories of what happened in class. Then may talk about certain friends who repeatedly get in trouble or act up.

Patchwork families are also statistically at much higher risk for abuse. The most common type of CSA is perpetrated by unrelated male family members living in the same house. So if there is a stepfather or older stepbrothers in the picture, then the baseline risk is significantly higher. This is obviously NOT saying that all stepfathers are abusers, but the statistics are massively raised. Another red flag would be single mums who are actively dating. There was a MN thread a few days ago from an OP who was annoyed she wasn't told about a random boyfriend staying over during the same night her daughter had a sleepover.

I'm almost certain that one of my best friends growing up was being abused by her father. There were so many red flags looking back as an adult. He was a quiet guy who always kept to himself, especially if her friends were around. It was almost like he didn't want to risk any of her friends picking up on weird vibes or having his daughter mention something. She was a very sweet only child who went off the rails during puberty (smoking, drinking, partying) and moved out of the house at 18 and never came back. The whole house always had a "dark" energy to it. Even though both parents remained married, it didn't feel like a happy place. It's possibly her mum knew what was going on but turned a blind eye.

I know one person who was prosecuted for images of child sex abuse. I wouldn’t have picked him out in a line up of ‘dodgy feeling men’.

I avoid a lot of people who seem too good to be true- charismatic people or people who appear entitled. I suspect domineering people who expect to get their own way.

Even weird old Jimmy Saville, that walking red flag, is still believed innocent by some people who knew him. Grooming is powerful. I can’t remember the case, but I watched a documentary where they were trying to pin down information about a man who had been abusive decades before. They spoke to his neighbours. The adults who had been DC at the time of the abuse were totally unaware, and the neighbours who were adults at the time still didn’t believe it, despite the family having fled and the story being in the news.
Grooming is powerful.

You can't and anyone who thinks you can is deluded. I mean ok you sometimes can, but you can't know someone isn't. To be honest I think, other than the obvious thing, like not leaving them totally alone with someone you don't really know, I think the obvious thing is to make them very aware that they can tell you ANYTHING, even if someone has told them not to tell. And help them to identify other trusted adults such as teachers, in case they can't tell you.

So how do you deal with sleepovers then? As a kid I went to sleepovers at people’s houses who were not close friends from the age of around 11…it was good fun and character building to see other families and be more independent.

Don’t do sleepovers

We have forbidden sleep-overs and been honest since our children were little about why. We trust no-one. Given that my SIL and her cousins were abused by their grandfather during many sleep-overs who appeared 'normal' (non-suspicious), and our DD being SA'ed in kindy, we really have a hard rule about that.

Some families will be fine with that risk. We are not. Those cousins i mentioned? Their lives are just now so far from healthy, regular lives. Drugs addiction, serious mental health issues and so on.

SA wrecks lives and thrives in silence. Children live with the shame and guilt, the self-blame often without telling anyone why because of fear of repercussions (fear of hatred towards them, of destroying families, of gossip, of believing themselves unworthy of help, and so much more). If there are some things we can do as parents that do not cause damage when we protect our children from that risk, then we should do that. There are other things children can do besides sleep-overs.

Most dc are abused by someone known to them. I think talking about it from an early age is important so there is an awareness amongst the dc and also adults.

I went to sleepovers. I also experienced CSA aged ten, not on a sleepover, by someone who presented as a harmless old man. I'm pretty sure he wasn't a paedophile, either, in the sense of someone who had a specific sexual attraction to children -- I think I was just there. A vulnerable or incapacitated adult would have done equally well.

And I can tell you, as someone who is only realising now, in middle age, how much it marked me, that it was less the CSA itself that left me with considerable ongoing issues, but the fact that my parents didn't act when they were told.

And yet loads of dc who do sleepovers are not abused and ones who don’t can be abused.

I think it’s naive to assume banning sleep-overs will protect your dc from any SA.

@AbovetheVaultedSky Im sorry that’s awful and I agree the fact your parents did nothing is incredibly damaging.

@CrimpyHairVeryGood I wouldn’t ban sleepovers particularly in the teenage years. Growing up you need to learn boundaries etc and I think it’s important to be around others, see how other families interact, exposure to other adults etc.

Thank you. I genuinely think that was the part that left the mark, not so much the CSA itself. The man who did it pretended nothing was happening, and to have my parents do the same just reinforced my sense that I didn't really exist to the same extent as other people, that I was somehow sort of background noise.

It has meant that I've been very careful in vetting the parents of DS's friends before sleepovers, but in the full recognition that you can't ever know, really. The thing I can impact is that DS knows that I won't dismiss anything he says, ever, however inconvenient.

@AbovetheVaultedSky I remember my mum talking to me about SA (& harassment in general) from quite a young age. Saying it could be an uncle or another family member & not to be scared to tell or ashamed. I used to find it gross and didn’t like thinking of family in that way. What it did do though is make me understand that if anything ever happened I would be believed unequivocally & my parents would protect me. That parental protection and knowing you have it is sacred.

Unless you ban all sleepovers you csn never be100% sure .

Absolutely.

I think the point is, you can never be sure in any situation.

The very first time I met him, he was overstepping in conversation and there was something not right in his character.

I wasn’t at all surprised to hear 5 years later he got an 18 month sentence for indecent images.

BUT I think it was fairly unusual, normally you wouldn’t suspect someone, and that’s how they get away with it.

I would consider those pretty big red flags. Very few young men voluntarily offer to babysit and work in youth groups.

That's very very unfair and sexist. I get the general point you are making about those who seem 'too good to be true' but lots and lots of males enjoy being volunteers and leaders and enjoy spending time with kids. I think it's pretty damaging to relegate that to 'womens work'.

I possibly have a different perspective on the world as my children were unfortunately abused by a woman, someone we trusted implicitly and didn't suspect for a millisecond. What we have learned since she was discovered has devastated us.