To think infant circumcision is wrong but also that a total ban on it will not work and is not the most effective way to tackle it?

[Carla786]

On the recent threads after the tragic death of the baby boy who died from circumcision performed by a non medical professional, there have been a lot of calls for a total ban on here.
Now, I think infant circumcision is very wrong. But in practice I do not think a ban will work.
Most cultural circumcisions are performed by medically trained people. Backstreet ones need to be cracked down on with the full force of the law, but they are not typical.
Second, circumcision is key in Islam. However, while most agree it’s either compulsory or strongly recommended, age requirements are not as stringent in mandating someone has to be a minor. I think there is some hope sensitive campaigning within the community could maybe make more families consider leaving it until their son is at least maybe an older adolescent with more ability to choose.
Judaism – circumcision is central to Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox Haredi ofc, and more liberal Masorti and Reform. It is extremely unlikely that any law or external pressure would stop these practices, because brit milah is a covenantal obligation tied to Jewish identity. Attempting a blanket ban would likely trigger defensiveness, fear, maybe underground circumcisions and probably emigration of at least some to Israel or elsewhere, rather than protect children.
Focusing on sterile procedures, trained practitioners, and medical supervision would be more likely to significantly reduce risk. Jews have experienced persecution for circumcision in the past (e.g., Hellenistic bans and European restrictions), so any attempt to criminalise it today can feel existential. This is only heightened by the terrible upsurge in anti Semitism recently.

I agree with sentiments behind calling for a ban - I just thing measures short of a ban are more likely to work.

Was I joking ? Being aware of the humour in a situation does not equate with agreeing with it.

I agree. This would be a better first step to make- mohels must have full medical training.

As someone from a culture that circumcises babies, banning it will not end it. I completely disagree with the practice but I know people will continue to do it and older generations will put pressure on parents to do it to their babies.

I would like to see it be performed in medical (STERILE!!!!) settings and have to come with a counselling session beforehand.

Counselling for who ? The baby ? That's a very niche field. Not many people speak baby.

Why dont you read a bit about why circumcision is so important to Jews and then perhaps you'll understand better?

Im not saying anything. Im not "for" circumcision. I just understand the importance it has for one community. Its not a joke. Its not something to be sneered at and mocked. And for.those who are religious , the meaning is even deeper.

I agree...I think infant circumcisionis very wrong but ignoring the traumatic history of Maccabees etc will not help efforts to end it.

England is not the entire UK. In Wales and Scotland it’s totally illegal

And the law says it becomes illegal in England & NI if it goes ‘beyond reasonable punishment’ so is actually a grey area. Parents don’t decide if it goes beyond punishment - the law does

50 years ago the cane was allowed in schools - now it’s not. The law changed because it was agreed it was cruel and not necessary and wasn’t in the child’s best interest

I agree.

Can I ask if you are Jewish or Muslim? I get if prefer not to say.

Do you think younger gen would want to do it if not pressured?

No its disgusting and shows the disdain in which you hold the beliefs of Jews and Muslims.

Lose as much breath as you want. What you call hubris, I’d call empathy and a desire to protect the vulnerable who don’t have the voice to say no to having their genitals mutilated.

As for your defence of parents who use physical punishment, that’s up to you. I still think it’s abusive and damaging. I’m completely comfortable with thinking I’m right and that those parents are wrong.

Obviously for the parents. 🙄

I’ve known young mothers do it because “that’s what we do” without being fully informed about what they are doing.

So the law of the country you happen to be in 😂
Im not in england but the country im in allows parents to physically punish children so I can say 'the law allows it' (and infant male circumcision too)

@Carla786 @sabababa

I think you both sound as though you have some understand of Judaism and how it’s is practiced which I don’t really.

would it be possible over time for rabbis to extend their interpretation of the covenant so that the dial shifted slightly on this? So that circumcision could be interpreted as necessary in the past but through G-D’s grace ( science) we can now see the covenant differently?

I don’t have the correct language to explain this properly but in understood that the Talmud was the active, engaged interpretation of scripture and that it is interpretative.

I do care about the history of their beliefs which are based on ancient cultures that are pre- enlightenment. I care that these are holding back the progress of civilised rules that protect babies.
I care that people should have a right to their religious beliefs but not at the expense of protecting children.

Wow, you are indeed a superior parent.
Of course your way is the right way and everyone else is wrong 😂
All those terrible and abusive Jewish, Muslim and African parents with their mutilated boys...

I'm not saying saying laws shouldn’t exist because some people break them. The point is that badly designed laws can actively make children less safe, and child protection law is supposed to be about outcomes, not moral catharsis.

Criminal law works best when behaviour is visible, reportable, and enforceable. Infant circumcision happens in private family and religious settings. Banning it would inevitably mean driving the practice underground, encouraging overseas procedures, and disengaging families from health services.

the people who pay the price for that stance aren’t the adults — it’s the children, if parents are jailed, families are destabilised, or procedures are done secretly and unsafely. That’s why safeguarding law normally prioritises harm reduction and engagement, not maximum punishment.

Law isn’t just about drawing a moral line; it’s about whether that line actually protects the vulnerable. If a ban predictably increases risk to children and overwhelms courts and social services, it isn’t a serious child-protection proposal — it’s a symbolic one.

Thanks🤩

I totally understand the importance in as much as someone studying anything from the position of outside can.

But either not mutilating babies is an absolute or it is contingent.

Speaking for myself, and the society I wish to live in, it's an absolute.

Let's look at it with modern eyes

If a new religion occured, an offshoot of Christianity for example, which required the removal of a bodily part of newborn babies, would we (the world) just kick back and say, fine by us..... Crack on. I think not.

Ah, sorry, I was thinking of the babies

Consider my head wobbled.

Rastafarians know all about that.

Thank you for the thoughtful question.
Liberal Judaism recommends circumcision but doesnt see it
.as an obligation if there are concerns.
But orthodox and haredi communities- absolutely not. This is one of the basic tenents of being a jew. People dont understand just how fundamental it is - it's not something shallow like looking like your dad.

Yes
If a parent took a knife to any other part of a childs body we would remove them from their care.
Why does religion get a pass?

Imagine if the parents didn’t get jailed because they didn’t mutilate their baby?

Exactly.

Judaism is an interpretive tradition, but not all commandments are equally flexible. Circumcision is explicitly described as an eternal, physical covenant in the Torah, which places it among the least open to reinterpretation in Orthodox and Haredi Judaism. While practices around it have adapted — medical standards, safety, rejecting oral suction — the core requirement isn’t something rabbis can simply redefine as symbolic.

Masorti/Conservative Judaism is less strict but they and also most Reform still see it as essential part of covenant. Reconstructionists are more liberal too but they often still do it.