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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think infant circumcision is wrong but also that a total ban on it will not work and is not the most effective way to tackle it?

732 replies

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 00:49

On the recent threads after the tragic death of the baby boy who died from circumcision performed by a non medical professional, there have been a lot of calls for a total ban on here.
Now, I think infant circumcision is very wrong. But in practice I do not think a ban will work.
Most cultural circumcisions are performed by medically trained people. Backstreet ones need to be cracked down on with the full force of the law, but they are not typical.
Second, circumcision is key in Islam. However, while most agree it’s either compulsory or strongly recommended, age requirements are not as stringent in mandating someone has to be a minor. I think there is some hope sensitive campaigning within the community could maybe make more families consider leaving it until their son is at least maybe an older adolescent with more ability to choose.
Judaism – circumcision is central to Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox Haredi ofc, and more liberal Masorti and Reform. It is extremely unlikely that any law or external pressure would stop these practices, because brit milah is a covenantal obligation tied to Jewish identity. Attempting a blanket ban would likely trigger defensiveness, fear, maybe underground circumcisions and probably emigration of at least some to Israel or elsewhere, rather than protect children.
Focusing on sterile procedures, trained practitioners, and medical supervision would be more likely to significantly reduce risk. Jews have experienced persecution for circumcision in the past (e.g., Hellenistic bans and European restrictions), so any attempt to criminalise it today can feel existential. This is only heightened by the terrible upsurge in anti Semitism recently.

I agree with sentiments behind calling for a ban - I just thing measures short of a ban are more likely to work.

OP posts:
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SerendipityJane · 04/01/2026 15:51

sabababa · 04/01/2026 15:46

A child's life was at immediate risk. Not remotely the same. Children are also removed from families when at risk of harm.

Oh, and infant male circumcision is totally legal in the UK.

Your turn 🙄

And the thrust of this thread is that it should not be, except when deemed medically necessary. You are arguing for the status quo on your grounds, and I and others are arguing that against on the basis that it's nothing other than mutilation dressed up in a multicoloured coat depending on which argument you are making.

Stalemate. Or perpetual check.

Mischance · 04/01/2026 15:59

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 15:13

Do you & other people using 'sky fairy' type language really think this will, to take a pragmatic view, help convince religious Jews & Muslims not to circumcise?

But changing the law will do it - they will then have no choice. They will not need convincing about anything - they will just have to obey the law.

ElaineBurdock · 04/01/2026 16:01

I gave birth to my sons in the U.S.
I decided not to have my boys mutilated. My oldest son is in his 50's the youngest, late 30's. My boys have told me they are so glad they didn't get mutilated. My youngest told me he feels sorry for boys who had that done to them.

Apparently it's more fun to have a penis that's natural. I didn't ask for details.

I remember when my youngster was born, I had to pick a pediatrician from a list they gave, as I didn't have one already.

This pediatrician came into my room the next day with the intention of mutilating my little baby. I'd had an emergency C section, my baby was born with an Apgar score of 2. He didn't give a wild rat's arse about all that though.

This piece of shit lectured me. I was not in any condition to argue after a day of labor and then major surgery, I could barely talk. I remember him actually saying to me, "Father's want their son's to look like them". Right then so many questions went through my mind. Had he seen my husband's pecker? Was he saying my husband and son were going to compare bellywackers? My husband has a big one, if his son has a little tic tac one, would my husband disown him?

Instead, I mustered all my strength and shouted, "Nobody is coming near my baby with a knife". He ran away.

As you can tell, I'm still pissed off that I was put in the position of protecting my newborn from a dumb arse with a knife, when we were both trying to recover from one hell of an ordeal.

SerendipityJane · 04/01/2026 16:04

As you can tell, I'm still pissed off that I was put in the position of protecting my newborn from a dumb arse with a knife, when we were both trying to recover from one hell of an ordeal.

It would be cod psychology to speculate on the lasting effects on women who weren't able to do that and how they have to live the rest of their lives.

So roll on up ....

sabababa · 04/01/2026 16:13

Blushingm · 04/01/2026 15:46

Vaccination is slightly different to chopping off a part of their body……

Some parents believe smacking/physical punishment is in a child’s best interests but the law disagrees

Actually smacking is legal in England so...

And I think all children should be vaccinated and non vaxxers are uninformed and putting theirs and other children at risk, including the most vulnerae (so even worse) but doesnt mean I would force them to vaccinate.

Fleurdeville · 04/01/2026 16:16

Usernamenotfound1 · 04/01/2026 15:42

But there are circumstances where parents can be held accountable and/prevented from harming their child, even if they deem it in their best interest.

circumcision isn’t in a child’s best interest, causes pain and risks serious sequalae such as infection or death. There has been more than one case where a circumcision gone wrong has led to amputation of the penis. There are no benefits to circumcising a healthy child with normal anatomy.

refusing or not seeking essential life saving treatment for a child. Insisting on futile treatment that will cause suffering - Charlie Gard for example.

if I decided I believed in a God who required the lobes of the ear chopping off, should I be allowed to do that?

But @sabababa I would argue that Northern European views are superior in Northern European countries - that’s the whole point - they are integrated systems. If a doctor working in UK or Norway didn’t follow the medical guidelines in line with their countries training, they would get in trouble. Medical/ health issues are managed and studied at some of the best institutes, resources are made available to understand,radical need is paramount - this also happens outside of Europe of course but each country will have its cultural and health knowledge studied to ensure the best outcome. Fro example, we have PreP available here as we know there are a percentage of gay men who will not wear condoms - the purpose of Prep is reduce transmission rates - that is a decision that has obviously been taken by medical boards and specialists and worked out to be the best course of action. That wouldn’t necessarily translate to other systems in other countries abroad.

We do have to believe that in medical matters we have best practice regarding circumcision - best practice for the patients body as we do use it in cases of phymtosis ( sp?). It’s about a different perspective- in Europe, medical and the health of the physical body is more valued than the spiritual.

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 16:17

Mischance · 04/01/2026 15:59

But changing the law will do it - they will then have no choice. They will not need convincing about anything - they will just have to obey the law.

That assumes law automatically produces compliance.
We’ve seen this repeatedly with prohibition, abortion bans, drug laws, and even FGM before community engagement improved.

Laws don’t operate in a vacuum. If families fear prosecution, they disengage from health services, perform procedures secretly, or travel abroad. That increases risk to children. Safeguarding works best when communities trust services — not when they feel targeted or mocked.

They will have choices: leave the country, go underground, or disengage from services. None of those options improve child welfare. Assuming people will simply comply ignores how law works in practice.
. If a ban makes children less safe, it’s not protecting them — however satisfying it sounds.

Bans on Jewish religious practices including circumcision, have often been experienced as persecution, which makes compliance less likely, not more. Shia Muslims (for whom circumcision is much more likely to be seen as compulsory- ditto)

OP posts:
Carla786 · 04/01/2026 16:21

SerendipityJane · 04/01/2026 16:04

As you can tell, I'm still pissed off that I was put in the position of protecting my newborn from a dumb arse with a knife, when we were both trying to recover from one hell of an ordeal.

It would be cod psychology to speculate on the lasting effects on women who weren't able to do that and how they have to live the rest of their lives.

So roll on up ....

We need more support for women who don't want yo this, esp in Haredi communities where women are not allowed as much religious authority.

OP posts:
SerendipityJane · 04/01/2026 16:24

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 16:21

We need more support for women who don't want yo this, esp in Haredi communities where women are not allowed as much religious authority.

Well changing the law to outlaw it would be the strongest possible support from society.

sabababa · 04/01/2026 16:25

Fleurdeville · 04/01/2026 16:16

But @sabababa I would argue that Northern European views are superior in Northern European countries - that’s the whole point - they are integrated systems. If a doctor working in UK or Norway didn’t follow the medical guidelines in line with their countries training, they would get in trouble. Medical/ health issues are managed and studied at some of the best institutes, resources are made available to understand,radical need is paramount - this also happens outside of Europe of course but each country will have its cultural and health knowledge studied to ensure the best outcome. Fro example, we have PreP available here as we know there are a percentage of gay men who will not wear condoms - the purpose of Prep is reduce transmission rates - that is a decision that has obviously been taken by medical boards and specialists and worked out to be the best course of action. That wouldn’t necessarily translate to other systems in other countries abroad.

We do have to believe that in medical matters we have best practice regarding circumcision - best practice for the patients body as we do use it in cases of phymtosis ( sp?). It’s about a different perspective- in Europe, medical and the health of the physical body is more valued than the spiritual.

Edited

What are integrated systems?
And northern European views can be applied to those very same northern Europeans. They are not superior in any way, shape or form.

Start by tackling the immense misinformation about vaccinating babies in this wonderland where the health of the physical body is paramount. You know, the stuff that actually kills babies - and other peopels too. Once you've got that out the way, then you can talk about how rational north European culture is when it comes to health.

Mischance · 04/01/2026 16:25

That assumes law automatically produces compliance.

No it doesn't. All laws have people who do not comply. That is what the criminal justice system is for.

I care not one jot that someone might see a law against mutilating babies as persecution. Better that they should feel offended than a baby who cannot defend himself is mutilated.

If circumcision on non medical grounds is outlawed then those doing it will have to face the courts and punishment.

Laws are broken and circumvented all the time of course, but that does not mean they should not exist. They are the backbone of a civilized society.

sabababa · 04/01/2026 16:25

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 16:21

We need more support for women who don't want yo this, esp in Haredi communities where women are not allowed as much religious authority.

What are integrated systems?
And northern European views can be applied to those very same northern Europeans. They are not superior in any way, shape or form.

Start by tackling the immense misinformation about vaccinating babies in this wonderland where the health of the physical body is paramount. You know, the stuff that actually kills babies - and other peopels too. Once you've got that out the way, then you can talk about how rational north European culture is when it comes to health.

sabababa · 04/01/2026 16:26

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 16:21

We need more support for women who don't want yo this, esp in Haredi communities where women are not allowed as much religious authority.

Haredi communities are the last that would ever give up circumcision. Ever.
One of the reasons for the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus was the banning of circumcision. The victory of that revolt is why Hannukah is celebrated

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 16:28

Fleurdeville · 04/01/2026 14:09

Why can’t it be replaced by a symbolic ceremony? Perhaps holding the scalpel close to the baby and gesturing the act but not actually cutting anything? Then recording tgat the child has had the ceremony performed?

we create these symbolic gestures and rituals - G-d didn’t say do this, scripture did and we can’t say that it makes sense if G-d is omnipotent - if the foreskin is not needed then it would change/ be absorbed into the body. A symbolic ceremony would still acknowledge the covenant aspect for practising Jews so why cant it be considered so that over time it replaces the physical act?

It really troubles me tgat such an irreversible act takes place on a baby - it contradicts the idea of faith as choice and instead commits a baby to something they have no say in.

I agree... But circumcision isn’t a symbolic ritual that can be swapped out; it’s a commanded physical act. From within Jewish law, a gesture with a scalpel wouldn’t “count” any more than symbolically fasting or symbolically keeping kosher.

The fact it’s irreversible and not chosen is also not accidental — it reflects a view of identity and belonging that isn’t based on individual adult consent, but on continuity of a people across generations. You can disagree with that ethically-but proposing a symbolic replacement misunderstands how the practice is actually understood by those who observe it.

OP posts:
blubberyboo · 04/01/2026 16:31

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 00:57

Realistically, many Jews may probably leave the UK for Israel or maybe US if we do that. Or maybe circumcise on holiday in another country. Would we arrest them for doing that on holiday?

I can't see this ending well for Jews, Muslims, or the baby boys who will probably end up being circumcised anyway

Imo it's much better to try and work with the communities to ensure proper medical insight & pain relief.

Yes we should prosecute them on their return

even if years later
the boy also should have unlimited time to sue his parents

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 16:31

sabababa · 04/01/2026 16:26

Haredi communities are the last that would ever give up circumcision. Ever.
One of the reasons for the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus was the banning of circumcision. The victory of that revolt is why Hannukah is celebrated

Edited

I know that...I was more thinking that a practical way to help would be to support those going off the derech and also support organisations like Chabad who are strict but at least more open to outside contact and forbid cutting your child off if they go off the derech (stop being Haredi). If people have more contact with outside world & know there is support if leaving, they have more option to leave and join a less pressured environment

OP posts:
SerendipityJane · 04/01/2026 16:31

sabababa · 04/01/2026 16:26

Haredi communities are the last that would ever give up circumcision. Ever.
One of the reasons for the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus was the banning of circumcision. The victory of that revolt is why Hannukah is celebrated

Edited

So in essence you are saying that because it's always happened (only it hasn't, but we'll park that as it stops the argument dead) then it should always happen ?

I'm quite happy to be told where my comprehension has failed. After all, how else could I learn ?

Fleurdeville · 04/01/2026 16:32

@sabababa yes, vaccination ( or lack of it in some communities) is a very real issue.

i think medically, the systems around the law, medical practice and consent have to be integrated so a medically trained person can legally carry out a procedure and be protected by the law. A mohel for example is outside of that sphere. An operation carried out on European soil has to be part of that, too. Abortions were prohibited in Ireland for so long due to the particular religious nature of the country and its influence on law whereas it was permitted next door in England. My point is that in modern, European societies there is now a standardisation of ideas so that we integrate - if someone doesn’t share those views I am not sure where the line is drawn - but I am sure there is a line - there has to be to protect those working within.

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 16:33

blubberyboo · 04/01/2026 16:31

Yes we should prosecute them on their return

even if years later
the boy also should have unlimited time to sue his parents

The care system is already very full : do you really think it's ethical to take kids away because of circumcision?

OP posts:
Carla786 · 04/01/2026 16:34

Fleurdeville · 04/01/2026 16:32

@sabababa yes, vaccination ( or lack of it in some communities) is a very real issue.

i think medically, the systems around the law, medical practice and consent have to be integrated so a medically trained person can legally carry out a procedure and be protected by the law. A mohel for example is outside of that sphere. An operation carried out on European soil has to be part of that, too. Abortions were prohibited in Ireland for so long due to the particular religious nature of the country and its influence on law whereas it was permitted next door in England. My point is that in modern, European societies there is now a standardisation of ideas so that we integrate - if someone doesn’t share those views I am not sure where the line is drawn - but I am sure there is a line - there has to be to protect those working within.

Edited

I think mohels do have medical training usually? It should be compulsory.

OP posts:
SerendipityJane · 04/01/2026 16:34

The fact it’s irreversible and not chosen is also not accidental

It's why the Japanese Yakuza require initiates to cut off a finger

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yubitsume

(A brave writer for a topical BBC comedy programme might play with an amusing play around male dominated criminal enterprises ....)

Yubitsume - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yubitsume

Bestchocolate · 04/01/2026 16:34

@KitWyn it was briefly learning about the gods that helped me shake off the shackles of catholicism even though I was very lightly invested as a child

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 16:35

SerendipityJane · 04/01/2026 16:34

The fact it’s irreversible and not chosen is also not accidental

It's why the Japanese Yakuza require initiates to cut off a finger

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yubitsume

(A brave writer for a topical BBC comedy programme might play with an amusing play around male dominated criminal enterprises ....)

Look, comparing Jews to brutal gangsters like Yakuza, even as a joke, isn't really helpful...

OP posts:
Fleurdeville · 04/01/2026 16:35

@Carla786 oh I didn’t realise - I think they are trained within their faith but they wouldn’t be qualified or registered to carry out a medical circumcision in a hospital ( for phymtosis, etc) - that’s what I meant

sabababa · 04/01/2026 16:36

Mischance · 04/01/2026 16:25

That assumes law automatically produces compliance.

No it doesn't. All laws have people who do not comply. That is what the criminal justice system is for.

I care not one jot that someone might see a law against mutilating babies as persecution. Better that they should feel offended than a baby who cannot defend himself is mutilated.

If circumcision on non medical grounds is outlawed then those doing it will have to face the courts and punishment.

Laws are broken and circumvented all the time of course, but that does not mean they should not exist. They are the backbone of a civilized society.

The absolute callousness to 'care not one jot' that it might be seen as persecution under the guise of caring so much about babies. I mean, you might not support circumcision but you might also want to care and understand the deep reasons this is held and the distress not circumcising would cause. To not care one jot makes me think this is not about supposedly protecting the babies of these communities when you care so little about their history and beliefs .

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