To think that this is child abuse and should be illegal?

[FlayOtters]

Poor boy. Why on earth do we allow people to continue to mutilate babies' genitals in the name of religion? It's utterly disgusting.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jan/02/coroner-calls-circumcision-safety-measures-baby-death-london?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Agree. It’s barbarism carried out in the name of religious practice. Unfathomable how any parent who claims to love their baby boy wants to cut off a part of his body.

I find that if you say things in a certain way, people are more likely to reflect and change their minds. And if you choose another way, they will feel judged, become defensive, and embed the very decision you were trying persuade them against.

I choose tact, because I genuinely care that a baby is not circumcised, or that they are immunised, or that they receive the treatment/prophylaxis that they need and that's the outcome I want to achieve. More than I want to release my own emotions on the subject. That is not because my feelings on a subject are the less strong.

A few things which are relevant to whether criminalising a practice will be useful:

• Is the practice already culturally embedded?

• Can perpetrators be identified and will they be prosecuted?

• What are the unintended consequences?

If a practice is already culturally embedded, unless enforcement is very effective / likelihood of being caught and punished is very high, people will continue that practice even if it is illegal.

At the same time, if the practice is criminalised, those who seek it will go underground, where it is more likely that criminals / those without any scruples will be the ones carrying it out, and conditions for the procedure will deteriorate. Additionally, you introduce a barrier to care seeking if the procedure has complications.

The practice continues, but as a direct consequence of the criminalisation, more babies are seriously harmed and die. The entire moral grounding of making the practice illegal, is to prevent, not cause that outcome.

So though I also feel very strongly that non medical infant circumcision is wrong, and would love to live in a world where it is not practiced, and is criminalised - I don't think we are at the point where criminalisation will do more good than harm.

Before criminalisation can occur, culture change must occur. Education and community engagement achieves this, in the meantime, regulation mitigates the harm.

Of course it should be banned. Cutting off healthy body parts of any child should be illegal. Circumcision, FGM, “gender affirming” medications are all just bloody wrong. Kids need to be allowed to grow up in to their adult bodies and then decide for themselves what they want to do.

The defence of circumcision on these threads amazes me, you go on any thead where someone has lost their tether and smacked their child and people talk about the OP like they've murdered someone.

But male circumcision is defended.

To be fair, there aren't many people defending it, thank goodness

@KidsDrsometimes it is important to say “no, this is wrong” as a society. It matters that schools can teach it is illegal and that a parent who objects is able to access legal help to stop it happening or help to prosecute an abusive co-parent. It won’t change every mind, but it’s perfectly possible to educate and engage as well as saying NO.

In addition, some law changes have helped shift societal attitudes. Gay marriage is an example, as is the legalisation of abortion. Even the public debate about whether to ban could be a hugely influential (similar to the smacking debate).

It should be banned full stop.
But while Jews and Muslims cling to it out of religious tradition it won’t be.

There are forms of female circumcision that are less invasive than male circumcision but we (rightly) ban it all.
Unless for medical reasons circumcision on boys (men can do what they want) should be banned.

It’s bonkers!

Of course. Absolutely heartbreaking loss, whoever carried out this barbarism should be punished for murder, the parents charged with neglect too.
I don’t understand chopping off or sewing up body parts unless it’s a needed medical procedure.
So many young men left disfigured by this practice.

I completely disagree with the practice of infant circumcision. I don’t have time to google right now but I do believe a circumcised partner correlates with a lower risk of cervical cancer for women.

Not that I remotely believe that that’s the intention of it.

I’ve had one circumcised partner and his was done as an early teen as medical emergency and he was really quite scarred by it (physically).

Thinking about it, I don’t really understand the reason for its popularity in the states?

That's a myth. Just washing properly prevents infections more successfully.

I do understand this argument but those examples are very different.

Legalising a good is very different to criminalising a bad, because of the relative absence of unintended consequences and the relative ease with which they can be mitigated or safeguarded. Something which becomes legal, can be regulated.

For instance, to access legal abortion, a woman is counselled or at the very least contacts professionals. This helps to mitigate the unintended consequence of forced/coerced abortion. Compare this to the illegality of abortion and it's unintended consequences. Women still have abortions, only, they also suffer a high rate of terrible complications including death. In fact, this was probably the major component of the argument to legalise abortion.

Those who are criminalised, yet still motivated - will slip underground, out of sight and out of control.

Secondly, those law changes accelerated a process which had already started. The law came about because the tide of opinion had already started to change.

If you look at the population as a whole, we're more than ready for this practice to be illegal, the tide has well and truly turned and people are majority against. But in the communities where it is practiced, it remains (for the majority) very deeply embedded and non controversial. They are very far from ready to leave behind this practice, in my experience.

A law change accompanied by effective, very consistent enforcement might be effective but I simply don't believe that adequate enforcement would happen. Which would make the unintended consequences, proportionately far worse than any of the benefits, potentially for a long time or indefinitely.

I'd love to be wrong, because as I said, I am personally and professionally very against the practice.

Banning smacking was criminalising a bad. There were (and still are) communities where smacking is acceptable. But we can teach children it is wrong and if anyone outside (eg teachers) notice or are told of it happening the law enables us to come to the defence of children. We teach children and young people properly that smacking is unacceptable so that even if their parents do it they know there’s a different way and may make better choices when they become parents. Breaking the cycle.

Criminalising FGM and child “marriage” are also legislating against a bad and both of those are obviously good decisions. When we’re talking about culturally engrained practices we (the country as a whole) need to look at the very long term. Making these practices illegal won’t stop them immediately and we can’t hope to save every single child. But it would ensure the next generation grow up in a country where it is spelled out how wrong the practices are. No grey areas, no nonsense. Every child in the uk told unequivocally by the government, their schools etc that the practice is a completely wrong. We need to think decades, not days.

I’m not doubting your intent, btw. I appreciate that we both want the same thing but just have different approaches!

Also, the abortion example is interesting. Lots of people were on favour because of the dangers of underground abortions and wanting to save the lives of mothers. In the long term what actually happened was that the checks and balances are largely tick box and there are far more abortions than anyone expected. I think it’s pretty much the reverse of the circumcision discussion and (if anything) makes the case for banning even stronger. Reduce the numbers seeking circumcising massively (cos most people do actually obey the law). Those who are prepared to do it without medical supervision already do so. As this case shows.

Any ome who does this on boys or girls should be charged with as many charges as they can and why is well religion or culture ever an excuse to deliberately harm someone

"It has serious long-term effects, including persistent infections, menstruation problems, bladder problems, psychological problems and, obviously, sexual problems"

Pretty tone deaf to come on a thread where a baby boy has died and then say what about the poor girlz .. circumcisions has no long term effects.
The baby is dead Fgs.....

I saw this happen when I was a student in Med school. It's disgusting. Again it was performed by someone who wasn't medically trained.

Absolutely disguting practice.

From a legislative perspective, compared to smacking, a child can tell someone they have been hit and who by, whereas finding out a baby is circumcised, let alone who did it, is more difficult. There would be the worry that parents become relucant to bring their children to doctors appointments for fear of being prosecuted.

In an ideal world, of course, it would be outright banned, but that is not an effective way to stop the practice in reality. The issue of FGM is still horrifically prevelant in this country, and legislation is largely symbolic, although brilliant work is being done.

A legislative campiagn that very clearly, loudly and publicly targets the practitioners over the parents might be the best method. This comes with the heavy caveat that although I work in law, it is certainly quite far removed from this type!

I do think we are going backwards as a society if random ‘doctors’ are mutilating children’s genitalia. Do you need a permit or medical qualification to mutilate an infant?

They are so strict about piercings, tattoos etc. This is far worse.

Yes banning may have unintended consequences but in the long term if people are prosecuted it will make people think twice. And I agree with pp that we need to look at the longer term.

Look at seatbelt laws, people resisted but eventually we are at a point where most people wear them - maybe other countries cultures don’t enforce this law but we do in Britain. And if a young child is circumcised after being born in Britain the parents must be aware if they have not reported it it’s easy to deduce they approved of it being done. It’s barbaric and we shouldn’t condone it. As a country we shouldn’t compromise on our values. And we should protect children.

My brother and I are non-practicing Jewish atheists. He was circumcised and later finding out how it is done and the risks involved was one of the main factors that turned him against the religion.

I agree that the UK needs to take it more seriously.

Yes, it’s abuse it should be illegal.

Mutilation of a child. It’s disgusting.

cannot believe we still allow this to happen let alone with non medical practitioners, nor aftercare, infection control, or aftercare.

these poor babies

Dh had his done at home when he was a child (I think 7 or 8?) by some random guy NOT a doctor. He had a bad infection and has some scarring. He has some quite traumatic memories of it, apparently loads of people were in the room... to celebrate or something. I absolutely think it should be illegal unless for medical reasons.

Fully agree but when these rules were established the link between cleaning and washing and diseases wasn't known. Personally I think it is a dreadful thing to do and I couldn't think what benefits it achieves in the 21st century