Court of Protection Process - how bad is it?

[ProcrastinatorsAnonymous]

I'm the only child of parents in their late 70s, who are doing absolutely nothing to get their affairs in order. The most pressing is Power of Attorney. They haven't set this up for me, or for each other. I believe that my father is the only named person on most if not all of their bills / policies etc, so I worry that if he loses capacity first, my mum will have a very hard time sorting anything out - and it will be extremely difficult for me to help her. Same with medical decisions - as it stands, I believe we would need to go through the Court of Protection.

It's not that they are refusing to do this. Rather, they agree wholeheartedly that they must and they will, but then... They just don't. I bring it up every 6-9 months or so. Every time: 100% buy in, zero action. My father's health is noticeably declining and so this is becoming increasingly urgent.

What does Court of Protection process involve? I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has been through it how long it took / how complex.

If they just won't / don't ever do Power of Attorney, who steps in to help them if I can't?

Am I being unreasonable to push them towards Power of Attorney? I feel like I am strong-arming them, but they have said that they do want to do it... I am increasingly anxious about how I will cope with grief alongside mounds of admin and call centres and "computer says no" and forms - and I'm frustrated that they're not doing something that could make things so much easier, particularly as I have no siblings and will be handling all of this on my own.

Agree with others that you need to offer to organise this for them.

Hiring a solicitor is one option, but it isn't legally necessary if you can find someone to be a suitable Certificate Provider. Their role is to independently advise the donors (your parents) and make sure they aren't being coerced into anything. For my Mum's LPAs we asked an old friend to do this. But I filled in all forms online and submitted them, and I'm the main Attorney.

You really don't need a solicitor.

I used to work at a law firm. IANAL, but I remember the solicitors were very strongly of the opinion that people should use a professional for writing a will (too many poorly drafted wills leaving a mess for the surviving relatives to sort out), but that Power of Attorney was a nice easy earner for them but something that they weren't really needed for, as it's very straightforward to do yourself.

I’ve done mine online for my children when I had a health scare - finance only as if I’m ill those welfare best interest decisions are often made by medics in hospitals! I did it online, it was quick and easy but post-Covid there are delays at the OPG (court of protection) BUT..do it. Having seen so very many cases of having to sort people’s finances out when they are ill or no longer have capacity it saves a whole load of heartache, seen people run into the ground trying to sort family affairs out. Make a will too. Did mine with the Co-OP when kids where younger with ex- as joint executor but now just kids as they are adults.

I had to do COP for both my parents as they absolutely refused POA as it was ‘unnecessary’ because ‘everything’s fine’ (it really wasn’t…)

The forms are endless, the capacity statement needs to be completed by a health care professional and I ended up paying twice for my dads - once to get the first deputy ship, then again to amend it to allow me the right to sell the family home once mum had moved into the nursing home too.

I still have to complete the yearly report for my mum (not difficult once you know what info they need) with the associated yearly supervision fees however the whole thing feels relentless

I persuaded DM to get her LPAs sorted by stressing how difficult it had been sorting COP for DMIL.

My tip would be to think about who the attorneys are and whether they should be able to act independently of each other. Once an LPA comes into use because the donor has lost capacity, it cant be changed.

DB and I are joint attorneys for DM's finances and that is proving to be a pain as DM's bank requires both of us to be present to carry out any transactions. This seemed sensible at the time of creating the LPAs but now the reality is more difficult as we live in different towns.

I recall quite vividly a phone call from the CoP supervisor (or whatever they’re called) when I’d completed the first annual report. It wasn’t an easy task to complete in the first instance and I couldn’t get the bank figures to balance - it was out by about £5. She was really aggressive, telling me I could be prosecuted for theft or fraud if it didn’t balance. I had bought my stepfather some new clothes off Amazon and also bought myself an item for £5, then inadvertently used my own bank card linked to my Amazon account instead of the card from his bank - which I was authorised to use. Once the clothes arrived and I knew they wouldn’t need returning, I then transferred the cost of the transaction back from his account into mine but forgot about the £5 item that was for me. I itemised these transactions on the report and had a copy of the invoice to keep with all the other invoices.
I ended up in tears on the phone surrounded by invoices, bank statements and receipts desperately trying to find the missing £5! She said as I was so upset she would ring me back later that week so I could have time to find that £5.
Being a deputy is a thankless task where you’re trying to juggle 4 weekly state pension payments, 4 weekly attendance allowance payments, monthly private pension payments and monthly care home fee invoices. Remembering to keep receipts for toiletries that you buy with the weekly shop, invoices from the podiatrist, hairdresser and other sundries he needed wasn’t easy.

Why don’t you do all the banking online? I was able to do so with Deputyship.

You cant use online banking if joint attorneys (as opposed to joint and severally), it has to be in the bank or via a cheque (jointly signed). This is Barclays.

We had no choice as parent went into care without POA, we had to use a solicitor, it was, slow, expensive and sadly parent died midway through the process, so a complete waste of thousands of pounds.

I felt like such a nag, but we insisted surviving parent allow us to do POA immediately as they could see how difficult and a waste of time it had been for everyone involved.

We did it online quickly, and they are much happier, I think older people fear the process and do not realise the difficulties of handling finances in the modern day.

If you're feeling a bit uncomfortable about it, I think I'd be tempted to a) to ask them if they mind you doing the leg work for it, and then b) send them copies of the forms (by post if necessary) a few days or a week before you're going to arrive for them to sign it.

@Soontobe60i must have been lucky then, I did one report that was about £12 out. In the comments I put I simply didn’t know (I worked it out the following year as I put the wrong closing figure in) but I was told they weren’t worried about small amounts.

Ive been doing these since 2017 and have only had one ‘supervisory’ phone call which does make me wonder what we pay for when we pay the fees!

Sorry to read you had a nightmare with yours.

Financial POA is more important than Health and W. Adult Social Care can make care decsions in an objective way, if they lose capacity and need care services.

@ProcrastinatorsAnonymous

I'm at the beginning of the process of applying for Deputyship. If you want to focus on the cost of it:

£421 application fee.
£500 for a private social worker to complete the lack of capacity assessment, if you want to avoid taking months to get it from NHS.
Annual supervision fee: £320 (or £35 if the person has assets under £21k).
£100 assessment fee for a new Deputy.
Annual security bond (a type of insurance) which I think costs 0.02% of the value of the assets (equal to £200 for every £100k of assets).

So the application fee is higher than POA, plus ongoing annual fees of hundreds of pounds.

For the application form you need to list every savings account, investment etc and their value. If the person owns a property, need to get that valued (and pay for that too).

If permission to sell a property isn't granted in the first court order, you have to apply again if you later need to sell it. I assume that means paying the full application fee again.

And there's the ongoing account keeping. I'm not at that stage yet but a PP has given their experience of being dragged over the coals about an unaccounted £5.

POA is far easier and cheaper than Deputyship.

I'm in the same situation and my parents are early 80s. Noticeable decline in last couple of years. Mum now has heart failure.

I have tried to be respectful and have brought it up a couple of times over the last couple of years, unsuccessfully. Like your parents, they agree in principle that it is something they will eventually need but they seem completely oblivious to needing to do it sooner rather than later.

I even tried to explain that it is different to when my parents had to deal with this with their parents and how difficult it is now. I feel is unfair to leave me in a position where I will have to deal with all that. I am a high risk DV victim - when my perpetrator gets out of prison, he represents significant risk to me and our child - and disabled, parenting a SEN child who I now have to home educate due to SEMH issues and lack of adequate school provision. I can't imagine making my life even more difficult with this situation.

I am going to have to try and have another conversation sometime in the next few months and highlight not only how difficult it it, but the intrusion (social care/doctors) and the cost. I dread this conversation because my mum acts as if I'm somehow writing her off and being disrespectful. My mum is difficult anyway - narc tendencies - and seems to be getting increasingly difficult as she's getting older.

I have no advice other than to gather the information, print off the form, present the facts, and try to highlight the negatives of leaving it... cost and intrusion etc.

I had similar.

The solicitor will ultimately make the decision if your parents are being coerced.

Sounds like you are attempting to support.

My parents found receiving advice and guidance from a solicitor- someone with an authority- very reassuring. They also, therefore, felt they were making the decision.

This is so difficult - I'm sorry. Would she respond to a made-up story about a friend whose mother didn't do it and all the trouble it caused - so you're so grateful she has agreed and you really appreciate it etc. Then put the forms in front of her. So she gets to feel like she is "one upping" someone else by sorting it out? I obviously don't know her - just wondered because you mentioned the narcissist tendencies, so that sort of appeal to the ego might work?!

Do you know what happens if they don't do POA and then you just don't do the Court of Protection process? Do social services step in? There must be people who lose capacity without family to support - what happens to them and who handles their finances on their behalf?

Oh my goodness - this sounds horrific. Yes - this is what I am desperate to avoid.

Power of attorney is much easier. Deputyship is a much harder work. I am deputy for my son who has never had capacity. It’s not very easy to get for health and welfare & they seem to be rejecting more and more (I got it, but we are still limited in the decisions we can make tbh).

This is a very good point about joint attorneys. If I was joint with the remaining parent, we live at opposite ends of the country, so that would be an issue.

They are easier on the deputyship finances now. Only want receipts for large purchases (over 1k iirc - about to do mine) but obviously best to keep them.

My neighbour is a solicitor, he ended up having to go through CoP when his mum lost mental capacity and he found it really hard going. PoA is pretty easy to DIY, I wouldn’t bother paying a solicitor for it. I recommend having everyone sign on the same day or they’ll reject it if you cock up the order.

Worth anyone in Scotland being aware that a lawyer has to be used to do POA for people living there - different legal systems. I assume they are still valid if people move to England (or vice versa) after making them but worth checking. I have a parent in that position but they haven't given me POA, just their spouse, so I'll wait to see how it plays out.

I had to go through the process of having myself and DM appointed as Deputies through the Court of Protection for my DF who had lost capacity without a POA. It was a nightmare. A very complicated, long drawn out process. I hold a professional finance job and could not have handled it myself, had to get a solicitor to do it. In all the process took just short of a year and cost over £3k in legal fees. To add insult to injury, the order was granted a week after he died so was all a complete waste of time and money.

Luckily DM was then very keen to get her POA sorted. I sorted it out myself using the information available online on you.gov which was straightforward, quick and cheap. Only a few weeks to get it registered.

if there is no POA or Deputyship I believe someone from Adult Social Care would have to be appointed to oversee his finances. Tell your DF that if he won’t engage with a POA you will let the council look after his money. I bet that spurs him into action!

You set up the power of attorney ; download the forms, get them to sign, with a witness and send them off. Job done

Have they been diagnosed with dementia? Unless they have there is nothing to say that they will lose capacity. My grandparents never lost capacity.
If they do lose capacity and nothing is in place, you can make an application to the court of protection to be their court appointed deputy. Social services can advise on this, they can also find an independent solicitor to act as deputy if there is no appropriate family member.