To be confused by the two working parent set up

[Angels1111]

As I return to work from my Christmas break I return to the same conundrum I've been having since kids were born...
...that is confusion at how to handle my multiple roles in life.

I can't help but think that in my mother's generation they had to do the same stuff as us, but with no work. And, there was more of a community to fall back on too - she could get the neighbours to watch us if needed, relatives had more time to visit and play with us, etc. But she had time, to keep herself healthy and to keep us healthy.

Now it feels like a lot of us work in careers which are not conducive to taking long career breaks or going part time. Or, we can't afford to. So we end up juggling everything that comes with having a family with work. My partner does lots but it feels like two people splitting three jobs between them (work, children, house) is more of a stretch and a juggle and I wish every day that I could just focus on the house and kids.

I feel resentful that if I hire a nanny or a baby sitter or get family to help, they'd just play with the kids, feed them lunch, and maybe wash up after lunch wheeras I'd be doing all of that plus the food shop, house cleaning, admin, cooking dinner, washing, homework etc etc simultaneously, and if I wanted to hire someone to truly replace my roles it would take 2-3 people just to do the home stuff let alone work.

But this could just be how I'm handling life! I have a chronic condition so potentially have less energy than the general population, I do handle it a lot better when I'm not flaring.

I don't think this is quite fair, I think people very much value the village and I'd say parents very much want it more than ever. The difference is there are some changes in parenting values across the generations - my parents felt it was fine to smack and I don't so I won't accept them hitting my child. Similarly they are very blasé about certain safety issues like not putting ds in a car seat with a big puffy coat on. I try very hard not to sweat the small stuff because I really value a grandparent relationship, but equally there are safety issues which as a parent it is my job to step in on when my kid can't advocate for themselves. I firmly believe in discipline and clear boundaries for children but i also know how my mum spoke to me at times and how i felt as a child hearing her form of discipline and i don't want that for my child. My mother was married, my dad was really hands on and she worked part time and availed of loads of babysitting from relatives- I'm a lone parent working full time and I have to be very selective of when I ask her to babysit because she doesn't want to do it and really begrudges it. She would never ask to do anything with ds and I know that when she babysits he'll be sat in front of the TV all day which I feel really guilty about even though I'd never say to her about it. So she might do an hour or two for me every few months which she will later complain about. Me and my sister try to help each other out as much as we can but I would love to have a village and a more involved grandparent. Any friends I have who have kids have a grandparent or two who are really involved and they are very appreciative of this.

I do think however there are some grandparents (such as my own mum) who can weaponise babysitting against their adult children knowing things are tighter now financially. My mum will be very vocal about whether she'll be 'allowed' to give my ds chocolate since I'm so picky about what he eats (I've only ever asked her to cut grapes in half when he was younger and decided to breastfeed even though she didn't think I should). She'll talk about when she babysits things are on her terms and she will lie to me about things and tell ds not to tell me things which I find inappropriate. It makes me feel like I can't trust her to babysit to the point I've had to change job from a job I loved to have less evening work events I had to attend.

I think if you're saying you'll only spend time with your dgc and babysit as long as you have free rein to do whatever you want with someone else's children then I'd question what your motivation is with that? Because that's not in the best interests of either your dgc or your children?

Exactly - the introduction of domestic appliances has removed the idea of women’s work @Screamingabdabz

My grandmother, born in 1904, started work at 14. I say 14 but in reality it was much earlier as she was the middle child of 14 siblings and their mother died when the youngest was a baby. Grandma was 10. Her older siblings were boys or married girls so as the oldest girl left at home she was tasked with raising her younger siblings. She left school and eventually went working in the mill at 14. She eventually finished work at 60, working full time throughout her life. Her daughter, my mother, also worked full time throughout her adulthood despite having 5 children born within a 9 year time span. Myself and my siblings have all worked as adults - only 1 sister worked part time but she too had 5 children. Whilst they were little she obtained a degree then worked full time in the NHS until she retired this year at 67. I had 9 months out of work when my eldest was born, but did go to uni and trained to be a teacher when she was a baby. I then worked full time until I was 59, went part time and am still working at 66. I plan to retire completely when I’m 67. I took 3 months leave when DD2 was born.
I’m not unusual - in my family and friendship group, most of us have worked full time most of our working lives.
We now have the benefit of automatic domestic appliances, online shopping, subsidised childcare, UC if unable to work, none of which were available to my grandma and mother, and not all available to me.
We have come a very long way in terms of improving the lives of working parents!

I agree with this.

Grandparents get micromanaged so much they're better off not bothering, or they can tbe grateful with their supervised hour every so often, where you can't even slip 'em some sweets with a wink anymore.

I'm 47 and both my parents (now in their late 70s) worked. My Mum had to do everything herself, as my dad often worked away during the week.

Generally people like to look back and claim times were better/easier, but they really were not. Most women shouldered the responsibility of work, home and family by themselves. It's always been a juggling act.

My Grandmother and Great-Grandmother both worked full time hours around their kids - nights, weekends, evenings etc. and worked harder than a lot of office jobs that I and my peers work now. I agree, the myth of the SAHM actually only applies to a very small section of history and class.

@Soontobe60 thanks for that, I find women's lives in history really fascinating, and individual stories illuminate the challenges that most women had. It's only comparatively recently that the school leaving age was raised to 16, never mind beyond that.

I never understand these posts. I suspect I am much older than the OP and my mother worked full time all her life from 14 years of age, a short time off when my brother and I were born and back to work. Life was hard and no benefits then. We didn't have a car and lived rurally so shopping all had to be done by bus and a fair walk to and from the bus stop. And of course no central heating, automatic washing machines, dishwashers or other modern conveniences, everything was harder and more labour intensive. It's a myth that women didn't work, if you were middle class (or above) maybe not but the middle class was much smaller then. Or it was misogynistic husbands who wouldn't let their wives work because of the stigma and wanting them under the thumb, even though the family was on the breadline.

My mother worked , my grandmother worked

and they did that without washing machines and fridges

middle and upper classes were the minority

I agree, OP. And you know what the most galling thing of all is with the set up we have these days? Women had it drummed into them for years that it was a bad idea to be a housewife, to give up your independence and full time work because if your husband buggered off, or died, you'd be stuck.

So then women DID keep their careers, their full time work, the kids in nursery for longer than the adults are in work every day. And yes, for a number of years, there were many women that thought "thank fuck for that" after their husband turned out to be an abuser, perpetually unfaithful, or just a massive disrespectful arsehole treating his wife like a skivvy. It was worth a woman doing all the paid work AND everything in the house because it meant if she was ever a single parent seh could afford her own house. It would be financially a struggle, or it would be a step down in size of house or flat, but it would still be doable.

But look at where we are now. We've got society set up so that (unless you are paid very well) it is ESSENTIAL to have 2 full time working adults in a household, just to afford the basics. The second salary is not for what it used to be for - a backup in case things went tits up but in the event everything went smoothly the extra money was nice as an extra to be able to afford nicer holidays or meals out, home improvements, etc. Now, 2 full time salaries are ESSENTIAL.

It's very difficult now for couples with kids who split up to set up 2 separate homes which can house the kids properly in each. As young children often live with their mother there are often dads who struggle to find accommodation for themselves big enough for kids to stay over, in the area they need to be. It affects everyone. Including grandparents who often end up with grandchildren living with them, or at least staying over every weekend.

Which means people in bad relationships could be just as likely to tolerate a bad relationship as they did in the past. Or worse, jump to another bad one, because at least they could combine households with someone else and share bills.

I am one of the lucky ones who managed to have kids just before housing and then the general cost of living shot up so had more choice. But I worry for my own young adult kids and the rest of their generation.

I don't think we should be harking back to the good old days of young children being latch key kids from the age of 6. Someone must have minded you while your parents were both at work especially during school holidays but plenty of people tell me that there were no nurseries like there is today. No school breakfast clubs. Working people now are out the house 8 till 6 every day or longer, so I'm assuming that "full time work" meant the same then. Did you take yourself to and from school, and start cooking the evening meal?

My mum only just retired at 66 . Always worked as did my dad. They had no help and really struggled with childcare/housework and full time jobs. I think my mum spent her 40s on the verge of a breakdown . I did the childcare from 9 onwards for my younger siblings after school.
I dont think it used to be easier at all. Its just for some they could have one parent working and one at home.
I think wages need to be higher in general to keep up with the cost of everything.

Just came here to agree. This simply isn't true at any point in my life. Sure, there were some women who didn't work but very many did using GParents where available and nurseries if not.
From about 1965 every single mum I knew, worked. Maybe after the youngest started school, but they worked. Part-time, term time, cash in hand, domestic-whatever but they worked. The vicar's wife taught in a local school.
Household budget/luxuries/sanity. Take your pick.
ExDP spent lots of time with his GM, even going to the school near where she lived. People did what they could,
Would just add, no-one I knew was wealthy at all.

Two salaries were always essential unless you wanted to live on the breadline, or the man had a very good job, banker, civil service or something, ordinary jobs didn't support a family at anything but the most basic level. The myth is that it wasn't like that in the past for most people.

I’d love to know when this time was too
I’m 61 and have always had to work - lone parent from DC being 4/5
DM always worked
My DGM born in 1903 went back to work as a teacher in 1939 and stayed until retirement - she had been forced to give up teaching once married before that but was allowed to return to help the war effort

What’s wrong isn’t women working

it’s the fact that men from all classes behave like the men of previous generations- that they are intrinsically worth more than the women - it’s still the minority that pull their weight around the home

women shouldn’t expect to be home makers because the men in their lives think it beneath them

Yes, I see what you mean. That might be a good idea.

I’m in my late fifties and if anything I am more envious of this generation who can depending on the job access WFH and flexible working . When my children were young I was trying to hold down a full time job and commuting an hour each way 5 days a week
WFH was not a thing for most jobs then. Also living in the commuter belt of London we were struggling to move up the property ladder without 2 parents working, there was no way we could pay the mortgage on one salary
There was also no family support for me as my parents/siblings and my husbands parents/siblings all lived hours away
I think all generations have had their issues I don’t think there is a dream generation it’s just that each generation has different problems
But on the plus side it does get easier as children get older . You just have to accept these are the hard years as they have been for every working parent

How people have a full time career, keep a home running and raise children. Pretty obvious what I meant given the OP, but I get the feeling you don't like what I said or agree with me, rather than not knowing what I meant.

No, I genuinely didn’t know what you meant. I can appreciate it that some people find it hard to manage a FT career, raise children, run a household, have a social life etc, but I don’t see how it would ‘never make sense’ to someone.

I mean, pretty much everyone I know does it, and some of them have extra things in the mix like children with additional needs, illnesses of their own, shift work, caring responsibility to elderly parents etc..

The only longterm SAHPs I know were either trailing spouses and unable to work for a period because of where they were, repeatedly made redundant through no fault of their own, or had conditions which made them unable to work. Not really a choice. The longest term SAHP I know is male.

The difference between then and now is women had to be cautious regarding their decisions and by and large more men did stick around and support them. Now men don't think they have an obligation and many women like a safety bet of benefits.

That isn't progress.

I think people are SCREAMING out for “the village”- they’re just not sure how to make it work alongside the demands of modern working life.

which people? people on here daren't even speak to a child that is pounding their toddler at soft play, let alone move the miscreant from the toddler area.

gran would have loved the progress whereby a woman can leave a violent marriage and keep her children safe with her

Many people have all that - able to go to university, pursue high level (and therefore stressful) jobs not just shop work or cleaning,funded childcare, sick pay etc and somehow are still only ending up living in exactly the same standard of house that families in manual work did in poor areas years ago.

You would expect that households with 2 parents working full time in professional jobs would be able to afford a FAR better house than a 2 up 2 down terrace but in many areas that's simply not the case. And I think this is what makes things feel harder. People wonder what they're doing it for.

No, it's not fair.

My parents and husband's parents are in bigger houses than us ( one owned and one council), although I would say our income is/was higher than theirs.

My MIL never had to work, even though they were hardly flush, and my mother always worked part-time.

They drew the ladder up once they had it good. Remember, though, we are the lazy ones for not working hard enough.