To think there is grade inflation in universities

[Thetelly8]

I’ve noticed a lot of students gain very high grades it seems people getting a 2.2 or a third is extremely unusual.

I think they are similar. I do think some useful things have been omitted and some "just for the sake of it" questions added. There are more tick-box questions, too, which I think is lazy questionin. One of the most useful elements of a seventies grade 5 theory, which I took, was learning how to write out trills and this no longer exists.
In reply to the person questioning whether or not it matters if piano exams are easier, I suppose it doesn't if you are taking music lessons as a hobby, which most people do. If, however, you want to take music more seriously, it can come as quite a shock to realise that your standard of playing is not as high as it should be. Also, I am sure there are more merits and distinctions awarded than in the past, which devalues them.

I think @RampantIvy and @OhDear111 and others are speaking to a key truth.

Until the reforms UK HE was an elite destination, A levels did cover much of the Y1 university curriculum elsewhere, and a three year UG degree in Britain was highly respected. But to some extent it was a closed shop. HE perpetuated the class system.

The reforms were meant well but two things went badly.

There was a fallacy that the quality of degrees could be maintained. It doesn’t bear analysis and I think we have largely debunked it here. (My own highly ranked STEM School awards double the number of Firsts of 20 years ago. A 2.2 is not quite a rarity, but close. Academics are not of the opinion that student quality is higher)

Also, as PP have said, employers began using the requirement for a degree as a screening mechanism. A degree, any degree, became more of an entry (or a bar) to a MC way of life than ever.

We need more pathways to financially viable careers and above all we need more pathways to respect and social equality.

(I think this is part of an over-amping generally. On a side note, every good recipe or household tip is now ‘genius’, and I am old enough to know the original, unacknowledged sources for many of them. I think this is the same cultural phenomenon as grade inflation)

Sorry, you are quite right, of course 😀

@Violinist64 Thank you for answering my question.
I remember learning about mordents, trills and turns etc for theory but I can’t remember if they came up in the exam.
If, however, you want to take music more seriously, it can come as quite a shock to realise that your standard of playing is not as high as it should be.
Some people we know with a quite talented musical daughter went to work in Hong Kong and the daughter who was used to being praised for her talents got the shock of her life in music lessons in Hong Kong. Practically all the other children of her age were ahead of her.

Thank you for your measured (as always) reply @poetryandwine
I was hoping you would find this thread.

How do we turn the clock back? Do we make the oversubscribed universities even more competitive to get into and end up with an even more divided two tier (or 3 tier if you take out Oxbridge) system? Won't more universities end up going under?

Thing is, the ‘over-subscribed’ unis are largely no longer over-subscribed - they’re mostly all in such desperate straits financially that they’re dropping offers. Remember Nottingham offering vet med at BBB a couple of years ago?

That’s not quite the case. That was often the offer, but AFTER you had passed their own exams. They’d already seen you were bright enough so didn’t really care about t( A levels. The entrance exam was a big deal back then.

@christmassytimeagainI think it was always like that. The polys weren’t universities before 1992. When they were polys they did award degrees but were often the more practical ones more allied to work. They didn’t offer History, English etc so were a different product which was understood by employers. Some courses like engineering were great at many polys but they were not set up to rival the existing universities although the 1963 Robbin Report envisaged no difference between universities and polys. In effect his views are now what we have and I don’t essentially object to this. My bigger issue is adding in colleges of education and colleges of higher education and colleges of art. It’s too broad.

The university sector has expended at the RG/elite end too. All the new halls of residence are testament to this. We could certainly solve some housing issues by reducing the university sector and repurposing halls and reducing demand in the rented sector!

I very much support HE. I just want to see it not via degrees when everyone is trying to woo students and we’ve taken away the alternative routes in too many cases.

This depresses me so much. I really hope AI doesn’t replace authors and journalists, but I think it might.

The polys weren’t universities before 1992. When they were polys they did award degrees but were often the more practical ones more allied to work.

If I'm remembering rightly, then any polys that awarded degrees had to have them ratified by a uni or professional body to ensure a reasonable level of ability was shown by the candidates.

Problem is that there isn't anything across most unis to try and get a equalling level (I think there is across performing arts - at least dd's course does something where it's sent to a moderator across several unis to ensure a roughly equal level, so there may be in some subjects).
Which is why university blind recruiting doesn't really work.

I remember when I applied, in one of the early years of "new" universities, one of my friends getting a place at an ex-poly with EENU (N was a near miss). She had E in General Studies and something like philosophy, N in biology, U in chemistry. Her degree was going to be in biology.
She contacted the course and said that she didn't think it was worth her doing it as she clearly wasn't up to it, and the admissions tutor told her cheerfully that she wasn't the lowest grade on the course and they weren't going to fail anyone, now they didn't have to be checked - it was up to them!
She initially thought this was great, but then when she'd thought it over realised that this meant the degree wasn't going to be worth much. She went out and got a job and did reasonably well.

I wonder if there is grade inflation at Oxford and Cambridge? I doubt we’ll ever know for sure, but I’m curious.

There is yes - the proportion of 1sts awarded has doubled in the last 30 years.

We didnt get supervisions for dissertation at my RG uni. Dissertation were meant to be independent, deep research based projects. We had to submit our question and could have some discussion around that but otherwise it was for us to do the work unguided.

Graduated late 90’s. Only one first awarded in our whole cohort.

Universities are now businesses that charge fees. They have to attract ‘customers’.
If they hand out Thirds, students won’t go there.

Our education system is ruined.

Universities always charged fees. The only difference now is who pays them.

Polytechnic degrees were was governed and administered at the national level by the Council for National Academic Awards. They originally focussed on what are now called STEM subjects, although many incorporated long established art schools too.

@titchy There’s also the increase in overseas students and they weren’t so much in evidence 40 years ago. The brightest turn up at Oxbridge so dc could well be brighter overall. Thats a guess.

They taught technical disciplines, hence polytechnic

I think the education sector which really should have been expanded is further education. They train below degree level from very basic foundation level up. They enable second chances for those who failed at school, and retrain graduates into practical skills that employers need. It is the Cinderella of the education system.

I’m not getting my work laptop out to double check - but I’m pretty certain that even amongst home students at Ox or Cam the increase in 1sts, and 1sts/2:1s is seen.

@BrokenSunflowers I completely agree with you. The polys were technical but now offer just about everything. HE colleges offering HE diplomas have gone and FE colleges are indeed a Cinderella service. In an area with many high achieving young people, the FE provision is poor. It’s very much weighted towards the university sector.

Back in the day we didn't have access to online lectures, online journals, the Internet (i didn't). I had to attend lectures, had to roam around libraries looking for journals. It was far harder to do research. Now you have study skills lessons, so much more support academically.

Semantics. Well done.

@wizzywig It hasn’t made students more intelligent though. The number of firsts awarded suggests it has. It’s made the degrees easier. 50 years ago a first was a rarity. DH knew of one on his course. There’s an argument to say firsts were too restricted back then. However some courses at mediocre universities award 40% firsts now so it’s lost credibility.

I agree that young people are no more intelligent than they were 40 years ago. Accessing study resources is so much better these days though.

The worry is that so many students use AI that it is difficut for anti-plagiarism software to pick it up. Won't this mean that employers will have to introduce more tests and steps to get through the interview process, or will they stop the university blind selection process?