To be furious at local church carol service

[YogaGrinch]

With our new "fundamentalist " vicar who included genesis 3 16

And other misogynistic patriarchal quotes and suggestions throughout the service -

Listening to the King's college Cambridge service tonight was a completely different service although there too there were some dated patriarchal views shared?

And basically using opportunity of a full church to preach hellfire and brimstone snd call us all hypocrites and sinners rather than preaching love kindness beauty

Never heard anything like it

Was absolutely 💔

I understand why it can look that way, and I appreciate the honesty of the point. Christians don’t believe the Bible dropped from heaven fully formed. It was written by real people in real historical settings — and that’s exactly what it claims. Christians believe God spoke through human authors, not around them (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21).

The idea that the Bible has been endlessly rewritten or lost and recreated doesn’t really fit the evidence. I do not know how that is with other texts, but that statement doesn’t apply to the Bible. Compared with other ancient texts, it is remarkably well attested, with thousands of manuscripts, many very early. Copying differences exist, but they are mostly minor and don’t change the core message or doctrines.

As for the “bad” parts, they aren’t ignored. Judges, in particular, is brutally honest about violence and moral collapse — not to approve it, but to show what happens when “everyone does what is right in his own eyes” (Judges 21:25). We even taught this book to our children’s groups too recently. The Bible doesn’t sanitise human behaviour; it exposes it.

Finally, the Bible isn’t trying to predict cultural change or offer timeless social policy. It addresses timeless realities: human sin, brokenness, and our need for rescue. Christians believe that story ultimately points to Jesus. From our perspective, the Bible’s humanity doesn’t undermine it — it’s part of how God chose to speak. I hope that explains the Christian perspective a bit more, and where it may differ from other faiths.

So it's something you don't believe in. Fair enough. Leads to an issue though : who is a real Christian, and who is not ?

There has been a lot of wars over that, and people still kill each other over it.

Here is a Biblical challenge . Mat 6:5-6 " And when you may pray, you will not be as the hypocrites, because they cherish to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the broad places, that they may be seen of men; truly I say to you that they have their reward. But you, when you may pray, go into your chamber, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who [is] in secret, and your Father who is seeing in secret will reward you." (LSV)

That seems totally clear to me. A direct instruction from Jesus. Do not pray in public, do it in a private room. Therefore, going to any church is a sin.

Non omnipotent humans who couldn't possibly know how the world was going to change in a few hundred/thousand years.

And yet the prophetic parts of the Bible do just that - for instance, how is it possible to know that Israel would be scattered worldwide and then regathered into a nation again thousands of years before it happened? What are the odds of that? How many other peoples have been scattered and then 1900-ish years later still retained their identity, language, culture and religion to the point where they could be gathered back into their own nation?

Deuteronomy 30:3-5 "then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you."

Amos 9:15 "I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them,” says the Lord your God."

Ezekiel 37:21-22 "then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. " (Written around 570-590 BC)

Also Daniel's prophecies about the coming kingdoms after Babylon and of course looking into the future yet to come.

I totally get that some people feel very strongly about the rapture, but I think the Bible is pretty clear about what really defines a Christian. It’s not believing in a particular timeline of end-times events—it’s faith in Jesus Christ. As Paul says, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Romans 10:13), and “By grace you have been saved through faith” (Ephesians 2:8–9).

Matthew 6:5–6 is often quoted to suggest that public worship is wrong. But Jesus isn’t saying that going to church is sinful—he’s warning against hypocrisy, about praying to be seen by others rather than sincerely connecting with God. He himself taught in synagogues and in public, and he praised hearts that are genuine, not showy.

I do hope that helps but appreciate this may have been directed to someone else and welcome their thoughts also.

He is giving a clear instruction, pray in private.

He is not saying these people can be in public and these not, he is saying pray in private.

Well, the central Christian beliefs are summed up in the Nicene Creed. Other beliefs certain denominations hold may or may not be heresies, and may or may not be matters that affect one's salvation. So for example, believing in, or not believing in a rapture is not a salvific matter.

Clearly (to me at least) killing others over what they believe is wrong and pretty futile as once someone is dead they can't change their beliefs. Better to talk about these things, ideally.

That seems totally clear to me. A direct instruction from Jesus. Do not pray in public, do it in a private room. Therefore, going to any church is a sin.

Context is everything. Jesus was referring to the Pharisees, who loved to openly showboat that they were praying and showing off that they were holy, righteous men (which they weren't). Jesus called them a brood of vipers, which I'm sure you recall! He urges his disciples (and so all Christians) to not do that, in fact do the opposite and shut yourself away to pray. However! The Church is where the body of christ gather, to worship, pray and teach the scriptures. It's not wrong to go to church to do this. The very early church were house gatherings of Christians, and later due to persecution they met wherever they could. They prayed together - it's important to pray with others as well as doing so privately, but to do it in sincerity.

Also, Jesus taught us the Lord's prayer which is to be prayed with others as much as on one's own. 'forgive us this day our trespasses", "give us our daily bread" and so on.

It really comes down to your motive for prayer. If you go to Church in order to show that you are a Church goer, in order to be noticed, then that is sinful, but going in order to have fellowship and join together in prayer isn't a sin.

@GentleSheep

Re prophecy.

Deuteronomy, that verse is talking about gathering the people. Part of the Exodus myth, Written to explain how their nation came about. There is, as you know, zero evidence Exodus happened. And yes, no evidence is not proof against, but there should be evidence.

Amos. And. It is basically someone saying their god gave us this land.

Ezekeil. That's just someone writing to justify having a King be in charge.

Jesus got his big prophecy wrong of course.

Mat 16:28 "Truly I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who will not taste of death until they may see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."" (LSV)

I think there's great intelligence and insight displayed by some posters here.
I think the arguments on all sides are really well supported and thought out.

But aren't these superceded by something simple, accessible to everyone not just the intellectual elite?

Love God (Good will do just as well.)
Love one another.

These commandments need a feeling for relationship in order to fulfil them, but you don't have to be conventionally clever.

To me they actually sound like common sense, and if that's a simple framework for life it's easy to remember, and we can't go far wrong to try to follow it.

Except Jesus did not say you should gather together to say the Lords prayer. He said this.

Mat 6:5-10 "And when you may pray, you will not be as the hypocrites, because they cherish to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the broad places, that they may be seen of men; truly I say to you that they have their reward.

But you, when you may pray, go into your chamber, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who [is] in secret, and your Father who is seeing in secret will reward you.

Andprayingyou may not use vain repetitions like the nations, for they think that in their speaking much they will be heard, therefore do not be like them, for your Father knows those things that you have need of before your asking Him; therefore pray thus: Our Father who [is] in the heavens, hallowed be Your Name. Your kingdom come, Your will come to pass, as in Heaven also on the earth." (LSV)

He is explicitly saying do not be like them. Do it in private. His instruction is not conditional.

The vain repetitions is worth a note too. Because he says this, then instantly gives what if a prayer, to be repeated.

Absolutely — you’ve put it beautifully. The gospel really is simple and accessible to everyone. We all fall short and sin, but God loves us so much that He sent Jesus to rescue us. Through faith in Him, we are forgiven, made new, and can have eternal life with Him instead of facing judgement. The Holy Spirit comes to guide and empower us to live in a way that pleases God after we trust Jesus. This is the Christian gospel.

From there, it’s really simple on how to live: love God and love your neighbour. That’s a framework anyone can understand, and it’s life-changing when we live it out. Of course, we are all sinners so it isn’t easy to always be Christ-like, but we can pray for change.

But anyone can live like that without having any religious belief, far less being a Christian. Buddhism, for instance, has no concept of a deity, but advocates much the same principles of loving kindness, doing no harm, generosity and patience. Jesus is a comparatively minor prophet in Islam, but it advocates similar ethical principles to Christianity of kindness, mercy, forgiveness, humility etc.

Absolutely. I can’t claim to be an expert on other belief systems, but I understand that many belief systems — and plenty of people with no religious belief at all — value kindness, generosity, patience and doing no harm. Christians don’t claim a monopoly on good behaviour or moral insight.

Where Christianity is different isn’t primarily in the ethics, but in the gospel. Jesus didn’t come mainly to give a better moral code; He came to deal with our sin and restore our relationship with God. The Christian claim is that even when we know what love and goodness look like, we still fall short — and that’s where grace comes in. Christians believe that salvation isn’t achieved by living well enough, but received through faith in Jesus.

Christianity, in its official doctrines, emphasizes humility and universal moral truths, some individuals or groups attempt to claim a unique moral authority.

Quote " Where Christianity is different isn’t primarily in the ethics, but in the gospel. Jesus didn’t come mainly to give a better moral code; He came to deal with our sin and restore our relationship with God."

It's no different. Paganism has godly messengers, mortals who become Gods, children of gods. Christianity is exactly the same.

Christianity has Satan, demons, angels, saints etc

And look at the ten commandments ( the first version, there are 2)

Exo 20:2 "I [am] your God YHWH, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of a house of servants."

Exo 20:3 "You have no other Gods before Me."

It is beyond dispute that the Bible has loads of different gods. And the idea that a god has a child is far from rare.

overall all religion could be summed up as basically just another way to control and in theory guide society

but why make humans feel bad as if they are sinners if we are all in gods images ?

If Christianity thought humans were simply bad, there’d be no need for redemption at all. The very idea of sin only makes sense because humans are made in God’s image and are worth restoring. I appreciate that you may not hold this view; I am simply trying to explain what Christians believe.

Thank you so much for your post. I’m genuinely sorry if your experience of religion has been hurtful — many people have been wounded by institutions, power structures and moralism, often in God’s name, and Christians should be honest about that where there have been failings.

But Christianity, as Christians understand it, isn’t primarily a religion in the sense of a system designed to control behaviour or organise society. It’s a faith centred on a person — Jesus — and that God acted in history, and that reconciliation with Him comes by grace, not compliance.

Religions tend to work bottom-up: rules, rituals, moral effort, social order. Christianity works top-down: God acts first, humans respond. That’s why the heart of Christianity isn’t “do better” but “you are forgiven — now be transformed.” I hope that gives a bit of colour as to what Christians believe on this. I’m so sorry if your experiences have left hurt with respect to religion.

but if its only other humans that presume we are bad how can we know if god themselves considers humans bad,

Original sin. that came about cos YHWH put a tree in his garden. That HE put there, this all seeing all knowing entity. So HE knew what would happen, therefore he invented it.

As an exercise though, can you find where in the bible sin is explained, or defined ?

The Bible offers several complementary explanations and definitions of sin across both the Old and New Testaments, rather than a single, isolated definition.
The most well-known and direct definition is found in 1 John 3:4, which states: "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness" (ESV).
Key Biblical Definitions and Verses
Beyond the basic definition of lawlessness, the Bible explains sin in several ways:

• Transgression of God's Law (Lawlessness): This is the core definition from 1 John 3:4. It means actively violating God's commandments and moral standards, as outlined in the Bible (e.g., the Ten Commandments).
• Missing the Mark: The original Hebrew (chata) and Greek (hamartia) words for sin are archery terms meaning "to miss the mark" or target. This implies failing to measure up to God's perfect standard of righteousness and holiness (Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God").
• Rebellion Against God: Sin is often depicted as an act of disobedience and a rejection of God's authority and will. This is seen in the account of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 and is described in verses like Deuteronomy 9:7.
• Failure to Do Good (Sins of Omission): Sin is not only doing what is wrong (sins of commission) but also a failure to do what is right or good when one knows they should. James 4:17 states: "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin".
• Lack of Faith: The Bible also indicates that actions not motivated by faith in God can be sinful. Romans 14:23 says: "But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin".
• All Unrighteousness: A broad definition is found in 1 John 5:17, which simply states: "All unrighteousness is sin".

In summary, the Bible portrays sin as anything in thought, word, or deed that goes against the character, will, or law of God, resulting in separation from Him and, ultimately, death

Cool. So ChatGPT can't even find where sin is defined in the bible, apart from in 1 John, which was written approx. 80 years after Jesus died.

And that verse of John does not even define it. Quote : "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness" (ESV).

Because now we need the Bible definition of lawlessness. And given what Mosaic laws were, that will include mixing fabrics and eating pork and shrimp.

Checking the other verses referenced by ChatGPT-

Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God--" (LSV)

Not much help.

Deu 9:7 "Remember [and] do not forget that [with] which you have made your God YHWH angry in the wilderness; from the day that you have come out of the land of Egypt until your coming to this place, you have been rebellious against YHWH;" (LSV)

No mention of sin at all in that verse.

James 4: 17 "to him, then, knowing to do good, and not doing [it], it is sin to him." (LSV)

Ok, so that verse leads to a need for definition for doing good.

Rom 14:23 "and he who is making a difference, if he may eat, has been condemned, because [it is] not of faith; and all that [is] not of faith is sin." (LSV)

So it's a sin to not have faith ? That's not a great help.

Quote " In summary, the Bible portrays sin as anything in thought, word, or deed that goes against the character, will, or law of God, resulting in separation from Him and, ultimately, death"

But we all die anyway. The law of god, fair enough, that's Mosaic law. But Moses too, if he existed, is also dead.

I think we can mark that down as a ChatGPT fail. And a Bible fail too of course. I will stick to the old fashioned way, my keyboard and a Bible app.

:-)

Christianity wouldn’t say “humans are bad” in the sense of worthless or evil by design. It says humans are good but fallen.

And Christians don’t claim this is merely other humans presuming things about God. The claim is that God has made His view of humanity known through revelation — supremely in Jesus. If Jesus is who Christians believe him to be, then what he says about sin, forgiveness and restoration is God’s view, not human speculation.

Importantly, God’s verdict on humanity in Christianity isn’t “you are bad” but “you are loved, yet broken — and worth redeeming.” The cross makes no sense if humans are simply fine, and it also makes no sense if humans are simply worthless.

So the Christian position isn’t built on humans deciding they’re terrible and projecting that onto God. It’s built on the belief that God has spoken, acted in history, and shown both the seriousness of human brokenness and the depth of human value at the same time. I hope this explains to you a little bit more about how Christians view separation from God.

The Bible explains sin the way it explains love: not by a sterile definition, but by showing what it looks like, what it does, and why restoration is needed.

The Bible isn’t trying to be a technical dictionary that offers neat, single-sentence definitions in the modern sense. It doesn’t do that for love, justice, wisdom or faith either — yet no one argues those concepts are therefore meaningless. Instead, meaning is conveyed through story, relationship, example, contrast and consequence.

“Sin” works the same way.

We don’t have a single, exhaustive definition of love that settles every question. We recognise love by its characteristics (patience, self-giving, faithfulness), its opposites (neglect, exploitation), and its effects (connection versus breakdown). You learn what love is by seeing what happens when it’s present — and when it’s absent.
There are obviously different views on love, but we wouldn’t insist that someone who cares tenderly for their child and says they’re acting in line with Jesus’ command to love their neighbour isn’t loving simply because they can’t cite a precise definition.

Sin is similar. It’s not primarily a checklist of prohibited actions, nor reducible to Mosaic food laws. Christians use “sin” as shorthand for that which damages or breaks relationship with God, just as betrayal damages a marriage or selfishness damages a friendship. You don’t need a dictionary entry to know when a relationship is fractured.

That’s why Scripture speaks about sin in overlapping ways — lawlessness, rebellion, missing the mark, not keeping God’s commands, and so on. These aren’t competing definitions; they’re different angles on the same relational reality.

And Jesus himself consistently reframes sin away from fabric mixes and food rules, and towards the heart: pride, hardness, lovelessness, unkindness to others, lack of mercy etc. Most of us can recognise those tendencies in ourselves without needing a technical definition. I hope that provides a different perspective on what a Christian understands by sin.

@ByLovingTraybake

Your quotes in bold.

"The Bible explains sin the way it explains love: not by a sterile definition, but by showing what it looks like, what it does, and why restoration is needed."

Where does the Bible explain this? Give a couple of examples.

"We don’t have a single, exhaustive definition of love that settles every question. We recognise love by its characteristics (patience, self-giving, faithfulness), its opposites (neglect, exploitation), and its effects (connection versus breakdown). You learn what love is by seeing what happens when it’s present — and when it’s absent."

We are talking about sin, not love.

"Sin is similar. It’s not primarily a checklist of prohibited actions, nor reducible to Mosaic food laws. Christians use “sin” as shorthand for that which damages or breaks relationship with God, just as betrayal damages a marriage or selfishness damages a friendship. You don’t need a dictionary entry to know when a relationship is fractured."

Where is this checklist ? Also, I am not talking about specific Mosaic laws as you well know. I am talking about all 613 or so of them. For example, under Mosaic law I can keep slaves. So if I keep slaves, I am not committing a sin. And remember, Jesus said not one iota of the law will change.

"That’s why Scripture speaks about sin in overlapping ways — lawlessness, rebellion, missing the mark, not keeping God’s commands, and so on. These aren’t competing definitions; they’re different angles on the same relational reality."

Where does Scripture talk about this ?

"And Jesus himself consistently reframes sin away from fabric mixes and food rules, and towards the heart: pride, hardness, lovelessness, unkindness to others, lack of mercy etc. Most of us can recognise those tendencies in ourselves without needing a technical definition. I hope that provides a different perspective on what a Christian understands by sin."

Where does Jesus say this in the Gospels ? For example, where does he say we can eat pork? Remember, the story about Legion, and chasing the pigs into the sea. That can easily be construed as him enforcing the pig ban. So where does Jesus say it's ok to eat pork ?

Where does Jesus cancel the Mosaic laws