To be furious at local church carol service

[YogaGrinch]

With our new "fundamentalist " vicar who included genesis 3 16

And other misogynistic patriarchal quotes and suggestions throughout the service -

Listening to the King's college Cambridge service tonight was a completely different service although there too there were some dated patriarchal views shared?

And basically using opportunity of a full church to preach hellfire and brimstone snd call us all hypocrites and sinners rather than preaching love kindness beauty

Never heard anything like it

Was absolutely 💔

No, I’m afraid that is an incredibly “selective” reading and is not what the bible actually says at all. It is very clear about God deliberately inflicting famines, plagues, floods, mass genocides, infanticide, subjugation of women etc.

Any being who actually confesses to doing this in their own account (allegedly) where they will no doubt be presenting themselves in the most favourable light possible is not one to be praised.

I’m afraid sacrificing your own son (allegedly) doesn’t atone for such egregious crimes, either.

And this is a being that is supposedly omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, so was fully aware of the consequences of its actions in advance and has complete choice over whether to do this. It seems like very extreme gaslighting to then try to blame humanity for it if the bible is to be believed and this being also created humanity! So it could easily have made humans in such a way that none of this happened. There was no need to create suffering etc, or “test” people, or demand “faith” from them or threaten them with “punishment”. The being itself must be very flawed or quite sick to create such scenarios out of choice when it could have done otherwise so no matter how you read it there is one thing that this being is not (if it exists) and that is benevolent.

If you believe it exists you should not be worshipping it, you should be terrified.

I prefer not to believe in such a heinous monstrosity that has committed worse crimes than any human who has ever lived.

Jesus was a human!

How can he “return” but not be a human??

I am obviously not so wise as I don't understand the distinction. Please explain.

Indeed. Usually the “preachers” are the type of people like the Evangelical Christians who stepped over “Borat” and looked at him in disgust when they found him lying on the steps of their church looking destitute on a Sunday morning.

Meanwhile, those of us who aren’t religious often spend time doing actual charity work instead of thinking standing in a building singing about how devoted we are to a self-confessed sadistic invisible being makes us good people.

• "The Word of God" (capitalized): This refers to Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, as described in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". In this view, Jesus is the ultimate, living, and incarnate expression of God's revelation to humanity.
• "The word of God" (lowercase): This refers to the Bible as the inspired written record that contains and points to "The Word" (Jesus). Proponents of this view maintain that the Bible is a vital and authoritative medium through which God speaks, but it is not the person of Christ himself.

Wow. They really will tie themselves up in knots to try to justify the unjustifiable horror show of a book, and try to disown all the inconvenient parts, won’t they?

certainly seems that way, it truly is a masterpiece of writing

You might not believe in the rapture, but Jesus did take the time to explain it in Matt 24.

And here is the thing about the thought experiment. You are stood in line at the pearly gates, an infamous mass murderer is behind, begging for forgiveness.

You say that would not be for you to forgive, so what was all that stuff that Jesus preached about forgiving ?

And here is the paradox. If you don't forgive the murderer and give him your place in the line, then you are breaking the commandments Jesus gave you. And that will make you a sinner. And sinners do not get into heaven. You have to forgive, or you don't believe what Jesus told you.

Luke 15:7 "I say to you that [more] joy will be in Heaven over one sinner converting, rather than over ninety-nine righteous men who have no need of conversion." ( LSV)

And what is the greatest sin of all in Christianity ? The sin that Jesus himself deserves the death penalty ? To not believe in him.

You mean like pretty much every post from @ByLovingTraybake on page 18 and elsewhere?

Or are em dashes only allowable from those “preaching the word of the Lord” and all people being critical and using perfectly normal punctuation must be “AI”.

I find this weird obsession with accusing all posters who use em dashes or even colons and semi colons of being “AI” very odd. Did you not ever see any punctuation beyond ,.?!” previously?

LOL.

Must be a lot of repenting, sinning, begging, and forgiveness on a repeated cycle as they jostle in that line, hoping that they’re not in the wrong position in the cycle once they reach the gate. A bit like a game of hot potato - “pass the sin”!

Imagine the fury if you’ve spent a lifetime being oh-so-righteous and then the serial killer comes along and makes you give up your spot at the final second and off to hellfire for you! But you know it’s the right thing to do, being a good Christian and all. All in Heaven will cheer with joy for the converted sinner, and don’t give a damn about your fate. 😆

Goodwill to all men! Apparently. I guess that would include the murderous psychopaths and child molesters and rapists and a good little Christian would willingly give up their place in paradise for any one of those… unless they are a hypocrite, of course.

Well yes. A Christian should never really get into Heaven, is they went by what Jesus said.

The Amish done it when they had a school shooter. And the Popes have had to do it.

As an ex Christian, it does amaze me how so many proclaimed Christians ignore what their Jesus said.

Christians wouldn’t see human brokenness as God’s error. The biblical claim is that God made humanity good, with real freedom, and that sin is about how we’ve used that freedom, not a manufacturing fault. I hope that explains the Christian view on this.

No — but I appreciate that Christianity’s claims can feel counter-cultural. Christians are sometimes accused, as on this thread, of using artificial means simply for expressing beliefs that don’t sit comfortably with modern assumptions. I’m just trying to explain, in my own words, what I trust and believe the Bible teaches.

I think we may be talking past each other a little, but I appreciate the thought behind the question. As I understand, you are assuming forgiveness means granting salvation or surrendering one’s place. Jesus never taught that. Forgiveness is about refusing personal vengeance; salvation and judgment remain God’s domain. Luke 15 celebrates repentance — it doesn’t abolish justice or turn heaven into a moral queue. We are always taught to forgive. We are always taught that salvation is a matter for God. I hope that makes sense of what Christians are taught on salvation and forgiveness, and how it could be applied to your hypothetical thought experiment (which I don’t believe would occur; I am trying to engage to show the application of the Bible as best as I can).

I think this is still working with a picture of heaven that Christianity doesn’t actually have — a fixed number of slots, a physical queue, and people handing places back and forth like tokens. That isn’t a Christian idea, so the satire is aimed at something Christians don’t believe. Salvation isn’t scarce, transferable, or allocated by other humans — it is God’s gift, not a reward pool.

The whole point of Jesus’ teaching is precisely to undermine both moral self-congratulation and the idea that goodness / good works or deeds earn entry. That’s very different from a “queue at the gates” model. I hope that explains what Christians believe about salvation. It is different to other faiths.

Re your thought experiement - just one big logical fallacy I'm afraid. There's no 'queue' for Heaven. Each person is judged according to his/her actions during their lifetime. Not their actions after death!

Sinners do get into Heaven btw. All Christians still commit sins, it's our human nature sadly and we will continue to do so until death. The Holy Spirit is transforming us to be like Jesus (the process of sanctification) but it isn't completed during our lifetime. However as a believer in Christ's sacrifice, we are covered by his blood and so at death God sees us as sinless. No queues, no tricky tests to pass.

The greatest sin in Christianity is the one that cannot be forgiven; that is, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It's the continual rejection of the Holy Spirit's call to repentence, because your heart is hardened against God. THAT is the greatest sin.

I was a Christian for 20 plus years, so it's not a case of understanding what Christians believe

I was a US style rapture evangelical, but not of the prosperity or personal reward type.

All I can do now as an atheist is explain how I interpret the Bible now, free from any dogma. That is, what the words say, not what I want them to say. And Jesus does describe a rapture in Matt.

You may be thinking of a particular type of fundamentalist Christian who believe the whole bible is 'the word of God' as if God dictated it. Many Christians don't believe that.

And Jesus does describe a rapture in Matt.

I do believe in the rapture - I'm pre-trib rapture millennialist.

What is your understanding of rapture?

Not traditional to recite at Xmas, but famously the Christmas story does include a labour and birth…

OP, I don’t want to be an arsehole but this is the basis of the Christian belief and if you find it patriarchal and abusive, well… perhaps you’re not Christian but a humanist?

How can my thought experiment be a logical fallacy when religion is not logical ?

There are about 40k different Christian denominations. Growing all the time.

You can say you disagree for sure, but the thought experiment is not a fallacy. It's a thought experiment.

The whole concept of earning brownie points to get in is a major part of the big denominations. It's how they exert control in many cases.

I couldn't name one religion that doesn't do this.

The fact is, whatever you believe, these texts (the Bible, koran etc.) were written by mere men thousands of years ago. Edited every few hundred years, rewritten, lost, rewritten again. Any resemblance to the 'original' message would probably be around the same percentage as remains of the original Trigger's broom.

And the reason the 'bad' parts need to be ignored, is that they prove the texts were written by men in the past. Non omnipotent humans who couldn't possibly know how the world was going to change in a few hundred/thousand years.

The whole concept of earning brownie points to get in is a major part of the big denominations. It's how they exert control in many cases.

That would be salvation by works, not something I believe in. I believe in salvation by faith alone. Sure, ideally faith results in works being done, but they're not the means of salvation. Thief on the cross as an example. I'm aware some denominations do go down that route though, unfortunately.

In my opinion that sort of thought experiment is just a distraction. There are loads of interesting and difficult passages of scripture to tackle if you want an intellectual challenge.

Thank you. I think you’re right to gently point out the danger of false gospels that turn salvation into something we earn by our own efforts. At its heart, the gospel is wonderfully simple and full of grace: we are sinners who have gone astray, and we cannot save ourselves. We are called to repent and to believe in Christ — and it is through that faith alone that we are saved, not by our works. Good deeds flow from a transformed heart, but they are the fruit of salvation, not the cause of it.