To be furious at local church carol service

[YogaGrinch]

With our new "fundamentalist " vicar who included genesis 3 16

And other misogynistic patriarchal quotes and suggestions throughout the service -

Listening to the King's college Cambridge service tonight was a completely different service although there too there were some dated patriarchal views shared?

And basically using opportunity of a full church to preach hellfire and brimstone snd call us all hypocrites and sinners rather than preaching love kindness beauty

Never heard anything like it

Was absolutely 💔

Hellfire & brimstone at Christmas? I think not! It's over 50 years since I last went to church, when things were 'traditional'. It was all about the baby jesus, hpe & light coming to the world &, I can asure, the vicar eas elderly & far from being modern!
This sounds like a rather sinister turn of events tbh.

Oh thank you for this, it really made me smile.

The most dated aspect of Kings College Cambridge is that they still don’t allow girls or women sing as part of their main choir. Separate provision only and certainly not a service that’s broadcast (currently) - so that’s hardly the bastion of equality of access or opportunity for women and girls.

Plenty of other cathedrals have had equality and access for women and girls for over thirty years to sing in their choirs.

Perhaps it’s time the BBC started to broadcast Carols from cathedrals on Christmas Eve that are fully inclusive rather than this choir?

I understand your concern, and it’s always right to be alert to misogyny wherever it appears. At the same time, we don’t actually know what was said in the sermon or whether any verses were taken out of context — the basis for the concern hasn’t been made clear. From what has been described, it seems Christ’s teaching was being shared rather than anyone promoting oppression.

The Bible itself is not misogynistic. Women are repeatedly affirmed and honored throughout Scripture. Proverbs 31 celebrates a woman of wisdom, strength, and virtue; Galatians 3:28 reminds us that “there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus,” emphasizing spiritual equality in God’s family. Jesus himself treated women with respect and dignity in a culture that often devalued them. He spoke directly to women, included them among his followers, taught them, and even revealed deep spiritual truths to them (John 4:7–30, Luke 8:1–3). He defended women caught in wrongdoing (John 8:1–11), and his interactions consistently showed that they were fully valued and capable of understanding and living out God’s kingdom.

So while it’s right to challenge genuine abuse or misrepresentation, hearing a Bible passage or a sermon doesn’t automatically mean misogyny is being promoted. Often, the heart of the gospel — including the teachings of Christ — is about love, dignity, and respect for every person, male and female alike. It’s always important to consider the full context of Scripture and of what is being preached.

King’s College Choir is a very specific, historic musical tradition, not a general statement about women’s ability or worth. Its purpose has always been the preservation of a particular sound and repertoire, rather than acting as a model for access across church music as a whole.

That said, you’re right that many cathedrals have long had girls’ and women’s choirs, and that’s something to celebrate.

I’m not convinced, though, that broadcasting King’s on Christmas Eve is an endorsement of inequality so much as the BBC choosing to air a globally recognised musical tradition on one night of the year — alongside many other services at other times that are fully inclusive. It’s possible to value both: historic traditions like King’s, and the flourishing of mixed and girls’ choirs elsewhere.

Perhaps the answer isn’t replacing one with the other, but making sure the breadth of what’s happening across cathedrals is better reflected overall.

Yes I just don’t understand that at all

especially when they are quoting scripture

I understand why that would sound unsettling, especially if your memories of church at Christmas are centred on the nativity, hope, and light — and that really is at the heart of the season. The Bible presents Christmas as God coming close to us in love and grace (John 1:14).

At the same time, we don’t actually know what was said in the sermon, and second-hand accounts can sometimes make things sound harsher than they were. The Christian story does include talk of sin and judgement, but not as “hellfire and brimstone” for its own sake. In the Bible, those themes are part of the wider picture of why Jesus came at all — to rescue, forgive, and bring people back to God (Matthew 1:21).

So Christmas isn’t about fear replacing joy; it’s about light shining into darkness, hope offered to a broken world, and grace that meets us honestly where we are. That fuller story has always been part of the Christian faith, even in very traditional churches.

Can I ask what you think the light of Jesus actually is?

@ByLovingTraybake
Thank you for all your insights and explanations

TBH everyone has always picked the bits they like from religion, and left the rest since the dawn of time- Christianity is by no means unique in this.

My thoughts exactly, great post.

Think I’ve heard it as part of the 9 lessons and carols but take your point.
vicars can get the tone really wrong. Went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve one year and got a dry sermon on Pascal’s philosophical argument about the existence of God.
Did not go back.

I'm not a Christian so I'm only going on childhood memories of going to a CofE service when I was at school. Those were the things I remember but I appreciate that those memories may not line up with current thinking in the church. There were other times when I attended other church services & don't remember them being being gloomy either.

@AlgaeScratchings
"I'm an atheist and not a fan of any faith but I assume that jesus was a nice guy who probably just told people to be kind to each other. It would have been great if he'd actually written himself a book about his teachings."

Erm...He did

Funny you should bring this up - yesterday lunchtime l was listening to the radio and there was a Christmas service on - (l’m not religious at all but just flicked it on as was getting ready to go out for Xmas lunch) the whole service was dreadful - full of misogynistic clap trap - no wonder we have the likes of the Tates when even the Church of England spouts such vile rhetoric.

I listened to the nine lessons and carols and found listening to a young boy reading the verses where Adam blames Eve followed by God's harsh judgement on both of them, a complete turn off. It may be traditional, but perhaps it should be consigned to the past. I don’t think you have to believe everything in the bible to be a Christian, the old testament, in particular, reflects the cultural values of the time it was written and has little relevance today. Although the same repellant attitudes prevail in Afghanistan in the name of religion.

You have to repent and believe that Christ died for your sins in order to be a Christian, but you won't understand what your sin nature is without the context provided in the Old Testament. The two go hand in hand. I am a Christian and the Old Testament plays a massive part in my understanding of the entire theology of tbe Gospel. Jesus himself quoted from the Old Testament many times, and he believed it to be the word of God. In turn, the Old Testament sets the scene and points fully towards Christ. There would be no need for Jesus to be born in the manger if Eve had not eaten from the three, theologically speaking. They are two sides of the same coin. The problem and the solution.

What did it say?

And yet if you read what Adam and Eve said (when God politely enquired as to what happened, thereby letting Adam and Eve explain even though God knew exactly what went down) you will see the very same excuses said over and over throughout human history - both sexes try to deflect the blame away from themselves. How many times have you done this? I know I have. So I believe this to still be very relevant, and has nothing to do with culture, but with basic humanity.

But was it harsh? they were told not to eat the fruit from the tree of life, they could eat the rest?

Made me think as that was read in the traditional King’s College Christmas Eve service on the radio.

Also they had no desire to eat from that tree, as when the Serpent first pointed out the fruit of it would be good to eat, Eve told it that they were forbidden to do so by God or else they'd die. She appears OK with that statement. It's not until the Serpent (aka Satan) questions whether she and Adam would really die that Eve begins to question what God had told them.

You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

At that point Eve sees the tree in a different light - she is going against God by following her own inclination and putting her own desires above God's command. Adam then follows suit eating the fruit, he falls into sin by enticement from Eve, rather than from Satan, as she had done. Eve was tricked, Adam engaged in an open act of rebellion against God - this is why the New Testament places the blame for human death on Adam, not Eve. (Romans 5:12-21, I Cor 15:20-23).

At that point, Adam and Eve's entire nature is corrupted. However in their favour they both feel shame and hide from God - the fact they feel shame means they know they have done wrong, and means there's the possibility of redemption.

Also it highlights that one act of disobedience to God set the entire cosmos into disarray. As humans we all see ourselves as 'good people' because we keep the law, give to charity, are kind to animals etc and yet we don't understand that our very nature rebels against God all day long. God hates all sin and we all sin all day. He hates even small sins. I can see why atheists and agnostics hate this, but this is the core principle of Christianity. In order to fix the problem, God came down to earth to absorb the punishment that humanity deserved and took it upon himself to restore that relationship with us, in spite of our sin.

If people like the idea of a cosy secular Christmas with the emphasis being on spending time with loved ones and giving gifts, that's great. Enjoy.

But people cannot expect to go to a church at Christmas and get offended because the whole point of said Christian celebration is referred to. Why do people think Christians celebrate Jesus' birth? I am honestly interested. He saved us from our sin, and Genesis explains how that came about

Yeah I think it’s a great idea as Christians to rewrite the bible to fit modern times and became an editable storybook because the actual word of god here doesn’t matter. As long as we can fit Christian theology into today’s society so that anything goes, it’s all good and we can still claim it as ‘what god has said’ anyway! We’re all a winner.

It is genuinely concerning that you think any of this is true.