To think many women expect emotional perfection from men but don’t offer the same?

[ReciprocityMatters]

I support high standards.
I support emotional maturity.

But AIBU to think some women now expect men to be therapists, mind-readers, emotionally fluent, endlessly available - while offering very little emotional stability themselves?

We say “I deserve more” but rarely ask “what do I give?”

In some cases yes. I use myself as an example.

Unfortunately having been raised by 2 mentally ill parents in a house full of violence my own emotional intelligence has been very low for most of my life.

Only in my late thirties and beyond did I start to recognise problems in my own behaviour and try to work on it (prior to that I didn't even know what emotional intelligence was, never mind have any)

As I did well career wise and relationship wise (because I was pretty) I did not realise how bad my own behaviour was in relationships. Now I could argue that 'it was not my fault' that my childhood left me with poor coping skills, manipulative behaviour, selfish and angry behaviour but at the end of the day it wasn't the mens fault who bore the brunt of it either.

So there are definately women out there who are emotionally unavailable with personality disorders, mood swings, anger issues etc. I would guess there are also plenty of men out there with the same.

People who grew up in stable, calm and consistent homes with emotionally intelligent parents who showed them how to regulate their emotions, deal with conflict and make good decisions, generally end up with high emotional intelligence.

People who grow up in chaotic, violent, unstable homes with mentally ill or addicted parents usually are not taught such skills and as a result often develop maladaptive coping methods that help them survive in childhood but are ultimately destructive as adults (yes I'm in therapy)

To all the kind, stable, reliable men who loved me and tried to build a life with me, I am sorry I treated you all like disposable crap there for my convenience and I am getting help from the NHS now. I'm very glad the majority of you have ended up married to good woman with kids of your own to pass your genes onto.

To the emotionally unavailable, selfish men who I chased after and desperately tried to make you love me/win your approval I was simply attracted to you because you reminded me of my dad. (who didn't want me or love me and resented the hell out of my existence). To those men I say it wasn't love you just triggered my childhood wounds and you all likely need therapy yourself.

I didn't cause the abuse but I am responsible for fixing my own behaviour now.

Please explain?

Sure, when I'm home I'll address your straw man laundry list. It needs a proper keyboard if I'm going to shoot down so much nonsense.

Seemingly they’re more ready to give up on marriage and children than expand their search criteria.

Seems sensible. No point settling for somebody you don’t want to be with simply to have “somebody”.

Who is “we”?

Anyone else remember a thread a few years ago where a man asked something like "aibu to say this is not a period?". He described his partner bleeding profusely, in pain and struggling to get up the stairs. His partner had told him it was just a heavy period.

He was clearly posting because he was worried. Because he was a man, he suffered a pile on by people who somehow twisted what he said as if he was accusing her of faking/exaggerating what was happening and he just wanted her to get back in the kitchen.

Thankfully a few helpful posters backed him up and told him to get her to a&e- it turned out he was right to be worried, as she was suffering a miscarriage having not realised she was pregnant.

Well yes, in theory. But if your life’s ambition is to marry and have children then saying you will only marry a prince amongst men when you don’t have any of the things a prince might be looking for is not at all sensible. It’s delusional and self-defeating. In reality, I think both of these women don’t understand what makes a man a “good” man and partner. It’s not looks and a big job, or a man who falls for a pretty face and doesn’t specify what he expects in return. Anyway. That’s what I think.

You said that your SIL is pretty, would like children and be a SAHM and in addition you said she's "very sweet and loyal and supportive person who would make a loving wife and an amazing mum". I'd say those are the qualities a lot of nice, financially solvent men would be looking for.

I would never expect perfection, we’re all human and make mistakes, but I do expect effort. I’ve stayed far too long trying to support partners who give me nothing in return.
Like many women here I tried far too hard to be the support they needed and said they wanted and it was never appreciated.
I learned from my mistakes and don’t tolerate poor behaviour and disrespect now.
Neither should decent men either as I know some women who are totally batshit and make their partners lives a misery.

Exactly. As long as you accept that there is a tradeoff here, it's fine. Women aren't obliged to get married and have children. They also have the option of going it alone in terms of children.

Righto, cats fed and watered and I'm ready.

Expecting men to be mind readers.
No, women don't expect men to be mind readers. This point has already been addressed by you in your 'what's wrong - nothing' post and I have already pointed out that men are as guilty of this behaviour as woman.
I would however like to add that it's also about basic things like not needing to ask (again and again) for one's male partner to wipe down the counter, do the dishes, put a load of laundry on. You get women on here saying their partners claim not to see what needs doing, but these are men who somehow managed to live alone and cope, yet forget all their domestic skills the moment they're living with a women.

Expecting men to never show any emotion. If they get depressed they are called weak, if they show even the slightest hint of anger, they are called abusive.
I don't recognise this at all. What I see on here and in RL (had a husband with depression) is women despairing because they can see their partner is struggling with his emotions, but he refuses to see a doctor, take medication, undertake counselling. And yet those women are expected to put up with the negative behaviour that is stemming from the depression. I would have loved it if my late husband had been able to express his emotions.
As for anger - anger is fine. Everyone gets angry. Rows happen. But we are adults and we need to control ourselves. This means not doing things like punching walls, breaking doors, throwing things - that crosses the line into abuse. This should be simple, and yet so many men don't seem to be able to handle anger in a balanced way.

Expecting them to approach us but also calling them predators for approaching us.
It's about how you approach. Do it in ansensible and non-creepy way and you won 't get any complaints. The majority of men manage this perfectly well.

Being suspicious of any man who wants to work with children, then complaining that men aren't showing enough interest in children or family life.
I agree that there is too much paranoia around this. The horror stories about nursery workers always tend to ignore that there have also been female nursery workers who have abused children.
I don't think you can conflate it with men being disinterested in family life, however. I think that men just can't handle the fact that children aren't actually much fun until they're older. Oh, you can cuddle babies - but basically the baby stage is messy, exhausting and not very interesting. Doesn't mean men get to not do their share though. My late husband was actually great in that regard - tackling the most awful nappy changes without a murmur. Men need to learn that they don't get to 100% down tools when they walk in the door after work, even if their OH is a SAHM.

Treating all men as potential sexual abusers and rapists, but complaining when they don't offer to help us or come to our assistance when we need them.
Sorry, but the vast majority of sexual predators and rapists are men. Forgive women for being wary. That's called being sensible.

Treating men with absolute contempt, no matter what the situation, even condoning sexually assaulting them (as in a thread on here a few days ago). One poster responded to the sexual assault of a man with "I'm sure he'll get over it".
We would not accept a man saying the same thing in reference to a woman being assaulted.
I didn't see that post, so I can't comment - but women who are sexually assaulted are, as mentioned by a pp, still routinely dismissed. Until the statistics for rape prosecutions improve, I don't think that is a statement you can make. As for 'treating men with absolute contempt' - what exactly does that mean? My baseline when I meet someone is courtesy and respect. If someone earns a different response from me - well, that's on them.

The idea that men are responsible for the behaviour of other men, while we don't hold ourselves responsible for the behaviour of other women.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.

The main problem I have with your list is that you write about women as if we are a homogenous block of people who all share the exact same opinions about absolutely everything.

Oh yes, they’re wonderful qualities and really are the making of her. On the other hand, she can’t cope with supermarket shopping (too much choice, bags too heavy, won’t online shop because she likes to pick her food herself) so she eats what her mum cooks or orders in, she will jump out of her chair and flail about any time a fly (not even a wasp or bee) comes near her because she’s worried about contamination, her health anxiety is off the charts at all times about all things (is this cut showing signs of sepsis??), she’s the pickiest of picky eaters (claims to be dairy intolerant…except for ice cream and cheese, likes to eat vegan except for a burger or bacon at breakfast etc), she can’t fly alone because anxiety unless she flies first class which she gets her dad to pay for, she has to drive a massive SUV because they’re safer and apparently Range Rovers are the safest (dad paid for) and so on and so forth. This is before even getting into the emotional buttressing and support for friendship issues, family issues, work issues, health issues. We all have good and bad, but the thing is to recognize our faults as well as our virtues. Not shortchange ourselves but also recognize we maybe can’t command luxury prices for non-luxury goods. She absolutely needs a partner who will look after her in every respect, and DH and I suspect this is where she’s come a cropper in the past. She’s too much work. She gives a lot, but she requires even more in return. She says she shouldn’t have to settle - nobody should. But what she needs to do is look at what she has to offer, the good and the bad, and see what she can expect in return and the likelihood of finding that within her fertility window. Or alternatively accept not reaching her life’s ambition which, to my great admiration, she does seem to be doing with grace and maturity.

😂

Care to expand or are you too busy laughing at the 27% of women in the UK who have been subjected to domestic abuse?

I don't like things being constantly framed in extremes. Girl Bosses vs The Manosphere. I wish women could be eulogising the power of womanhood not by emulating the worst male behaviours which is often how it comes across.

Well, yeah. There are unreasonable women as there are unreasonable men. It just seems to be that even if there are an equal number of unreasonable men and women, men are unreasonable in many more ways than women are.

As an example: men that expect their girlfriend to act like a trad wife without being her financial backer, and without actually marrying her.

What about all the men who are subjected to domestic abuse?

I did say that women abuse too but women are much more likely to be abused by men (men are also significantly more likely to be abused by other men) than the other way around and that's why women have to be extra careful and set these "unreasonable" standards when they are looking for a male partner.

Two wrongs obviously don't make a right, obviously.

Even if your life’s ambition is to marry / have children doesn’t mean you want that with just any old man.

So their position (foregoing marriage / kids rather than doing both with a man you do not wish to be with) is absolutely a sensible decision.

What makes somebody a good partner is entirely subjective.

What a weird post. She flails about at a fly and is herself a picky eater….so? What are the things you think she needs to stop desiring in a male partner because she “flails her arms about?”

You have already said she seems content to remain single rather than settle so why are you more bothered than she is? How does her refusal to settle for a man she does not like impact you?

Yeah - DH had 4 days off work when he had flu. When I got it, he took 2 days off work and then expected me to look after three DC (including twin DDs, one with diagnosed SEN, and the other with undiagnosed SEN), take DS to school, do the homework, cooking, etc for the next two days.

Given the choice between messing about on Excel all day, and looking after three DC, two under 5, I know which is infinitely easier! We are in the same profession and worked in the same office for about 18 years!

I can't get my head round what 'emotional perfection' might look like ~ OP gave a skimpy, threadbare idea to go on with, but this surely doesn't/can't define it? I certainly can't provide it, whatever it might be.

Women's standards can be as high as they wish when they don't need a man in their life. Mine are sky high, because I'm perfectly happy on my own, so if someone wants to join my life they have to make it even better, which is a hard ask.

If a man or woman is desperate for a partner, that's when they may have to lower their standards. But to be honest, in my experience this is mainly a man's problem. That's why some get so angry at women's "standards". Because they can't reach them. But that's a "they" problem.

Ah. A functional home is an impossibly high standard of perfection? You must live in filth.