Why do so many people talk about moving abroad like it’s just a matter of getting up and leaving?

[Ballondor]

Don’t get me wrong, I understand for some people, it is easy - those who’re mega-rich, those with a different or dual nationality. But I see it regularly on here and other social media - if this happens, I’m leaving; it’s crap here, I’m leaving; if they do that, I’m leaving.

As I understand it, post-Brexit, just upping sticks, uprooting your entire life, and rocking up somewhere is a slightly more convoluted and lengthy process. It’s not something you can get sorted overnight.

Quote : "..... but if you accept that millions will have a negative impact then it follows that a thousand will or even 10. "

That makes no logical sense at all. And in any case, I did not say millions leaving would have an impact. But I agree it could be construed that way.

A quick web search, about 4% of the UK is on 100k or above. Roughly 3 million.

Expanding a bit, about a million people retire in the UK each year. Apply the 4 % to that, and we get 40k people on 100k or above, per year ,lost to the income tax paying workforce. The majority will be replaced of course, people on 70k a year being promoted. The escalator of earnings. The economy survives.

So how on earth do you get " it follows that a thousand will or even 10" will have an impact on the UK economy? An economy that is worth about $4 trillion a year ? About 840 billion GBP of that being from income tax.

My maths is likely out, but it gets the gist of what I am saying across I think.

Your guess about me could not be more wrong.

You seemed to accept that millions of net tax payers leaving the U.K. would have a negative impact on the economy, so I was saying that logically then even 10 leaving has a negative impact all be it very small. Make sense? I don’t think anyone is saying the economy won’t survive, it’s just another negative trend that slowly erodes quality of life in the U.K.

Not all jobs are replaced, if you are hostile to net tax payers then people don’t want to live here. Some of those people are decision makers about where to base entire departments and offices. Whole businesses are leaving and taking staff with them as the talent don’t want to live in the UK. The supporting economy suffers as well as tax receipts.

It’s not clear whether you are saying net tax payers aren’t leaving or if they are then it doesn’t matter.

There’s really no upsides to pushing net earners and wealth creators to leave the country, it seems an odd hill to die on to be honest.

Tall poppy syndrome

Fair enough. If millions of the approx 3 million 100k and above earners were to leave, it would have a negative impact.

It would also have an impact on Dubai, given it has a population of 3.94 million. I say Dubai because that's the destination usually bandied about.

We could pick Australia if you prefer, population 26.77 million. 2% of Australians earn more than 200k AUD ( Equiv 100k GBP). That's about 535400 people, so I am not sure where another couple of million jobs in the same pay bracket will come from. Or the houses to put all these new immigrants of course.

You said: "I was saying that logically then even 10 leaving has a negative impact all be it very small". I think you could say infinitesimally small to be honest.

You also said : "Not all jobs are replaced, if you are hostile to net tax payers then people don’t want to live here.". My rough calculation above shows about 40k people on over 100k retire each year. How many of these people are not replaced do you think ? It can't be millions, or all?

This bit" Whole businesses are leaving and taking staff with them as the talent don’t want to live in the UK.". Can you name them ? And are these businesses leaving the UK because " the talent don’t want to live in the UK" . Leaving because of Brexit does not count of course.

I find this bit odd, because companies tend to move all the time. Often after take overs, re-organisations, off shoring etc. I have never known them to take all the staff. Usually a handful on short contracts yes, but not all. When it happened to me in the 90's, when I was sent abroad for a while as part of the relocation project, it most definitely not because people did not want to live in the UK.

This bit next : It’s not clear whether you are saying net tax payers aren’t leaving or if they are then it doesn’t matter."

It matters not one jot in the grand scheme of things.

See this link below. The Government are making it easier for them to be replaced.

UK Unveils Fast-Track Residency for High Earners After 3 Years (visaverge.com)

For sure, HNWIs are leaving. But these are not the folk on 100k a year. Many are non doms, and were not actually paying much tax anyway under the non dom rules.

UK millionaires are fleeing Britain in their thousands | CNN Business

Note the bit in that article that mentions Brexit. Quote : . “The hangover from Brexit continues to be felt, with the City of London no longer seen as the financial center of the world.”

I reckon this is just a project fear.

And I ask again, what Government would you prefer ?

Again, nobody is saying everyone is leaving or it’s going to crash the UK economy just that it’s having a negative impact and Dubai was an example. Why do you only consider it negative impact if a million leave but not when 10 leave? Surely it’s just a larger negative impact? I’m not really sure how to phrase this any more simply. If you loose a pound it’s a small negative impact, if you loose a million it’s that negative impact multiplied by a million. Make sense? There no upsides to making the country unattractive to net tax payers unless it’s an ideological thing, in which case just say that as it’s a different question.

You seem to be saying this isn’t happening, if it is happening it’s not negative and it doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. If you said it was happening because of the Tories whilst also claiming it wasn’t happening (possibly with a smirk on your face) we would have Rachel bingo.

Quote : "Why do you only consider it negative impact if a million leave but not when 10 leave?"

Because if I had 3 million quid in the bank and lost a tenner from a hole in my pocket, it is not exactly the end of the world. You said it yourself in your post.

I never mentioned the Tories.

And no, it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. What does though is funding public services.

No smirk on my face.

The UK did not collapse when I left. And I don't think it will collapse when your good self leaves.

So again, what Government do you think the UK needs, to solve this non existent problem ?

Ah yes, let’s move to the US.

You keep saying things like not the end of the world and it’s not millions, but it is a negative impact right? It’s not the end of the world if you break your nose, but it would be stupid to keep deliberately hitting it with a hammer.

And again nobody is claiming anything is going to collapse. It seems pointless to just keep arguing with yourself on this.

So again, what Government do you think the UK needs, to solve this non existent problem
Pretty much anyone who doesn’t have tall poppy syndrome as a core ideology. Rules out Labour and Greens. I can forgive Government incompetence but I can’t forgive deliberate malice.

What does though is funding public services.
Ah so it is ideological. It’s the two black holes!! Well this conversation has been a waste of time

Are you not being ideological here. Any government other than Labour and the greens.

When are you leaving the UK ?

What I have noticed on my travels is that most countries do have similar levels of tax as the UK. They don't have NI of course, but you defo notice the private insurance costs.

And people move about all the time. Very often because of oppressive governments, poverty etc.

But I have never heard of people moving country just because of a mansion tax, or a 100k cutoff point for free child care.

@WhereIsItPlease Any government other than Labour and greens lol

So I take it you can “forgive” the 14 years of Tory chaos and the gradual erosion and stripping back of our public services?

Note that incompetence is rarely just that - and even if it was it’s bad enough in itself - but incompetence is usually just corruption disguised.

“Oh we don’t know what happened with the PPE contracts, oh I don’t know why we gave all those contracts to our chums who promised me a job with a massive salary when I leave politics..we lost track of the covid business loans…silly us..,harhar etc” 🙄

Even on a 100k salary you are “only” paying 27k tax. Let’s not forget that the Government is spending close to 18k or even 19k according to some, on every single citizen.
The Government is overspending. That is a fact. And anyone with half a brain knows this and that is why people are opting out of the long term in the UK. They just cannot see a way out, in the long run.

having lived elsewhere it does annoy me when people say moving for tax - uk tax levels are relatively middling and quite low if on average incomes compared to most places I know about in detail - however one of the big issues is ‘costs’ childcare for instance in Scandinavia costs the same ( cheap) regardless of what you earn . Same with council tax , people in other country’s ask you ‘what’s that’ - A big problem in UK is simply not enough people paying it because a lot of lower earners have worked out they are no worse off doing far fewer hours, particularly if renting and have children and needing to receive government funding relative to wages because our housing is too expensive in so many areas unless you have social housing - and that’s buying or rented.

What % of UK Government income comes from income tax ?

About 26% ?

@RedTagAlan - it is about outlook on the pound as well. So once you decide you may not stay here forever and you cannot see growth nor your own return on investment of cash/your own labour and you are ambitious with big plans, you may choose a different jurisdiction with a better long term outlook. If it seems like a country where mediocrity and just getting by is celebrated and the electorate is stuck and that is not for you, other jurisdictions may offer more. And a lot of youngsters with ambition do chase “more”. The 40s-50s leaving with only another 15 years of work in them is not the issue. It is the young and brain drain there. It is not ideal.

Yes towards middle to lower end they are reasonable in comparison to some other countries in fact 53% of people effectively pay no tax U.K., but towards the top end it is utterly terrible especially with fiscal drag. Then you’ve got things like the U.K. taxing children’s education which is unheard of pretty much anywhere else, it’s actually tax deductible in the US, Germany, Italy etc. UK is good for low earners or non earners but bad for higher earners. It’s just tall poppy syndrome and it’s unsustainable long term.

Brain drain works both ways though, and the gradient is definitely towards the advanced economies.

And I think, referring to your previous post where you said, quote : "Let’s not forget that the Government is spending close to 18k or even 19k according to some, on every single citizen.". That can be combined with this "And a lot of youngsters with ambition do chase “more"". Is it not a case of the money expended by the state per capita nurtures that ambition ? And more importantly, ability?

I am not leaving the UK. I moved to a different job. But the job I previously had, instead of going to someone else in the UK, is now going to someone else in the US. So taxpayer pool is decreased.

they are moving this job only because I am leaving; they were not going to move me or make me redundant.

If I moved to Dubai, the job would be gone the same way. It won’t necessarily just be filled by a different UK person

“Is it not a case of the money expended by the state per capita nurtures that ambition ? And more importantly, ability?”
@RedTagAlan - well that is the million dollar question.
If the money spent actually traps people in low ambition rather than spending on top notch education, efficient health spending, infrastructure, modern housing and is combined with the huge tax burden we now have, that is why people do not believe the story anymore.
This whole “austerity” thing is a misnomer. Of course you need investment and spending, but it has to be efficient with a long term return. And it certainly cannot be disincentivising creativity, ambition, productivity and expanding red tape.

I'm sure they know it takes a lot more planning than a trip to the supermarket.

Anyone who is serious about emigrating, will do their research.

YANBU. It always makes me laugh that those who talk about moving overseas the loudest, are the ones who likely wouldn’t have a hope of qualifying to get into another country.

I think this is what some of us worry about though: it's the people who meet criteria who are able to leave. It means a lot of skilled people up sticks.

I think people are feeling depressed on a lot of fronts and it's human nature to think ok what can we do beyond moping about it.

It doesn't make me laugh: they are the ones the country could better afford to lose. Sadly.

I think you are basically advocating for trickle down economics?

Scandinavian countries usually top the tables for best country to live in, and they have high tax, robust welfare etc. I won't post links because you likely know this.

So what model should the UK try to emulate ?

Are we? We took our large final salary pension drawdowns, our savings, and once our UK house sells, we will sell our France house and buy a bigger one out here so not sure who you are laughing at really. Maybe at yourself?

Tbh things are as hard or as easy you make them

Maybe you don’t choose just one country to emigrate to. I know a few people who bounce between a few countries . They stay for 3 months in country A then move to country B for a few months more then either back to country A or on to country C for the amount of time they can stay there

Some are retired and some have online businesses

Know more who spend spring and summer here then live in Southern Europe when the weather gets cold

@Shedmistress - if you don’t still have a business and won’t be paying lots of tax anymore and would be increasingly using the NHS, you aren’t going to be a big economic loss though. You will be self sustaining abroad and spending there so they are probably more than happy to have you. Do enjoy.