Page 3 | To ask which historical crossroads you wonder about?

HoneyParsnipSoup · 2025-12-13T19:33:05+00:00

For me it’s wondering what would’ve happened had Catherine of Aragon had a son and Henry hadn’t divorced her. Country may well be totally different.

PinkPanther57 · 13/12/2025 20:54

SarahAndQuack · 13/12/2025 20:50

I'd love to know what would have happened if Henry had simply been happy with a female heir! He could have been. There were men around him who were starting to educate their daughters to high levels. His own grandmother was an absolutely formidable woman; there were plenty of real battleaxes amongst the female nobility both past and present. Catherine of Aragon's mother was a queen in her own right. Etc. etc.

If Henry had been a different sort of person, he might have believed Mary would be a perfectly acceptable queen, and he could have started laying the foundations to make her authority unquestionable, bringing her up to be a ruler, and so on.

My (totally speculative) sense is that he wasn't able to do this precisely because no one had ever really prepared him to be king. Because his older brother was expected to be crowned, Henry had nothing to fall back on except the belief that somehow, God and fate had made him king. And I think that made him horribly insecure and nervous in a way he might not have been, had he been brought up to believe he was always going to be king one day. I think that meant he was also totally inequipped to see that his daughter might be a ruling queen.

I can imagine Henry growing old and fat and boring with Catherine, who was absolutely devoted to him, and staying in the Catholic Church.

I love the idea of how different the rest of the sixteenth century/early seventeenth century would have looked in a Catholic England. Instead of Shakespeare et al. writing plays about spooky, conspiring Catholics with their superstitions and their weird Spanish/French/Italian ways, we'd have have plays about spooky, conspiring Protestants with their superstitions and their weird German/Swiss ways.

Great post. Didn’t Henry have a brain injury potentially & ulcers from a jousting accident made him irrational or paranoid?

Ladymuckypuddle · 13/12/2025 20:54

InterestedDad37 · 13/12/2025 20:27

If Dennis Thatcher had been a better lover.

I've been listening to Margaret Thatchers autobiography when cleaning this week. At some point when she's talking about Dennis, she says something like.. what a friend, what a something and then what a man in quiet a suggestive voice 😳 I nearly squirted bleach everywhere 🤣

Another what if from me... what if the Romanovs hadn't been executed?

Citrusbergamia · 13/12/2025 20:55

XelaM · 13/12/2025 20:46

If Germany had won WWI

Oh god, don't!!

SarahAndQuack · 13/12/2025 20:56

Aw, thanks @PinkPanther57. I love that period of history. And yes, he did. He had a jousting injury when Anne Boleyn was pregnant and she thought it made her miscarry (people did think miscarriages were caused by big shocks).

BrandyandGinger · 13/12/2025 20:56

The Man in the High Castle is a brilliant watch if you like alternative versions of history. The Nazis won the war and the US is divided into a section ruled by the Germans, a section ruled by the Japanese and a wild part in between.
I wonder what would have happened if the Democrats had gone for someone other than Hillary Clinton. When they ran Joe Biden for the second time it actually seemed like we were in the crazy alternative timeline.

Millytante · 13/12/2025 20:56

SarahAndQuack · 13/12/2025 20:50

I'd love to know what would have happened if Henry had simply been happy with a female heir! He could have been. There were men around him who were starting to educate their daughters to high levels. His own grandmother was an absolutely formidable woman; there were plenty of real battleaxes amongst the female nobility both past and present. Catherine of Aragon's mother was a queen in her own right. Etc. etc.

If Henry had been a different sort of person, he might have believed Mary would be a perfectly acceptable queen, and he could have started laying the foundations to make her authority unquestionable, bringing her up to be a ruler, and so on.

My (totally speculative) sense is that he wasn't able to do this precisely because no one had ever really prepared him to be king. Because his older brother was expected to be crowned, Henry had nothing to fall back on except the belief that somehow, God and fate had made him king. And I think that made him horribly insecure and nervous in a way he might not have been, had he been brought up to believe he was always going to be king one day. I think that meant he was also totally inequipped to see that his daughter might be a ruling queen.

I can imagine Henry growing old and fat and boring with Catherine, who was absolutely devoted to him, and staying in the Catholic Church.

I love the idea of how different the rest of the sixteenth century/early seventeenth century would have looked in a Catholic England. Instead of Shakespeare et al. writing plays about spooky, conspiring Catholics with their superstitions and their weird Spanish/French/Italian ways, we'd have have plays about spooky, conspiring Protestants with their superstitions and their weird German/Swiss ways.

God, Mary Tudor fighting off the approaching Reformation as Queen is still alarming. I reckon Oxford would still have its Martyrs’ Memorial even if Mary hadn't been so cruelly treated as a girl, but raised as the heir to the throne.
(In this fantasy she is still very closely bonded with her mother, whom she almost worships even in a happier narrative)

InterestedDad37 · 13/12/2025 20:57

Ladymuckypuddle · 13/12/2025 20:54

I've been listening to Margaret Thatchers autobiography when cleaning this week. At some point when she's talking about Dennis, she says something like.. what a friend, what a something and then what a man in quiet a suggestive voice 😳 I nearly squirted bleach everywhere 🤣

Another what if from me... what if the Romanovs hadn't been executed?

Show quote history

Perhaps I've underestimated him, and misconstrued her reasons for being such an arsehole 😀

SarahAndQuack · 13/12/2025 20:57

Btw, does everyone know Joan Aiken's lovely series of books set in an alternative English history timeline? The Wolves of Willoughby Chase is the first one. I love them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wolves_of_Willoughby_Chase

The Wolves of Willoughby Chase - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wolves_of_Willoughby_Chase

Maddyisqueen · 13/12/2025 20:58

History buffs?

Henry 8 son did succeed and the reformation started in Europe anyway and was gaining traction in England seperate from Henry wasn’t it?

wasn’t Edward 8th nazi sympathiser?? So that would t have gone well

Soashamed60 · 13/12/2025 20:59

@InterestedDad37 where has your post come from? Have you heard he was a bad lover? 😅

PinkPanther57 · 13/12/2025 21:01

InterestedDad37 · 13/12/2025 20:57

Perhaps I've underestimated him, and misconstrued her reasons for being such an arsehole 😀

Show quote history

As an aside those that knew her suggest Marg had no sense of humour at all & was likely autistic.

InterestedDad37 · 13/12/2025 21:01

Soashamed60 · 13/12/2025 20:59

@InterestedDad37 where has your post come from? Have you heard he was a bad lover? 😅

No, just wondering why Mrs T was so uptight 😀 (Could apply to Kier Starmer too, maybe he's not getting his jollies)

Maddyisqueen · 13/12/2025 21:01

Ladymuckypuddle · 13/12/2025 20:54

I've been listening to Margaret Thatchers autobiography when cleaning this week. At some point when she's talking about Dennis, she says something like.. what a friend, what a something and then what a man in quiet a suggestive voice 😳 I nearly squirted bleach everywhere 🤣

Another what if from me... what if the Romanovs hadn't been executed?

Show quote history

You can imagine it can’t you demanding excellence from Denis as compared to all her “vegetable” ministers

Millytante · 13/12/2025 21:04

PinkPanther57 · 13/12/2025 20:54

Great post. Didn’t Henry have a brain injury potentially & ulcers from a jousting accident made him irrational or paranoid?

Show quote history

I really, really love your vision of an England from which Catholicism had not been uprooted 500 years ago.
Like you I feel it suits very well the tenacious remnants of the Old religion in pockets of the country; bells, smells, and incantations mingle easily with the Green Man and Rambling Sid Rumpo.

MissFancyDay · 13/12/2025 21:05

SarahAndQuack · 13/12/2025 20:50

I'd love to know what would have happened if Henry had simply been happy with a female heir! He could have been. There were men around him who were starting to educate their daughters to high levels. His own grandmother was an absolutely formidable woman; there were plenty of real battleaxes amongst the female nobility both past and present. Catherine of Aragon's mother was a queen in her own right. Etc. etc.

If Henry had been a different sort of person, he might have believed Mary would be a perfectly acceptable queen, and he could have started laying the foundations to make her authority unquestionable, bringing her up to be a ruler, and so on.

My (totally speculative) sense is that he wasn't able to do this precisely because no one had ever really prepared him to be king. Because his older brother was expected to be crowned, Henry had nothing to fall back on except the belief that somehow, God and fate had made him king. And I think that made him horribly insecure and nervous in a way he might not have been, had he been brought up to believe he was always going to be king one day. I think that meant he was also totally inequipped to see that his daughter might be a ruling queen.

I can imagine Henry growing old and fat and boring with Catherine, who was absolutely devoted to him, and staying in the Catholic Church.

I love the idea of how different the rest of the sixteenth century/early seventeenth century would have looked in a Catholic England. Instead of Shakespeare et al. writing plays about spooky, conspiring Catholics with their superstitions and their weird Spanish/French/Italian ways, we'd have have plays about spooky, conspiring Protestants with their superstitions and their weird German/Swiss ways.

So if Mary was Queen after Henry VIII died who would have succeeded her? lady Jane Grey, sorry too tired to Google.

MovedlikeHarlowinMonteCarlo · 13/12/2025 21:08

SurferRona · 13/12/2025 20:27

If stupid and selfish Ed Milliband hadn’t stood against David. Twat.

Yes I was thinking this the other day.

SarahAndQuack · 13/12/2025 21:08

MissFancyDay · 13/12/2025 21:05

So if Mary was Queen after Henry VIII died who would have succeeded her? lady Jane Grey, sorry too tired to Google.

Show quote history

I think if Mary had been accepted as the next queen, Henry would have been much more 'on it' about getting her a suitable husband. Part of Mary's tragedy is that when Henry fannied around making her illegitimate then changing his mind, no one was really sure what her status was, which didn't make her a terribly eligible match. The likely reason she didn't have children with Philip was simply her age, which is terribly sad, when it seems pretty clear she would have liked them.

As to who she'd have married ... I wonder! Maybe Francois of France? That'd possibly have stopped the English-Spanish wars, which could have been interesting!

MissFancyDay · 13/12/2025 21:09

AnneofBohemia · 13/12/2025 20:30

If Harold had defeated the Normans at Hastings.

I'm still unreasonably angry about this.

Maddyisqueen · 13/12/2025 21:10

MissFancyDay · 13/12/2025 21:05

So if Mary was Queen after Henry VIII died who would have succeeded her? lady Jane Grey, sorry too tired to Google.

Show quote history

She was queen

it went
Henry
edward
mary
Elizabeth
and then the Stuart’s

jane grey for 9 days after Edward I think

AnneofBohemia · 13/12/2025 21:11

MissFancyDay · 13/12/2025 21:09

I'm still unreasonably angry about this.

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So glad to meet someone else with the same thought 😁. Imagine our completely different ‘leading families’ different language and we wouldn’t have been serfs.

Soashamed60 · 13/12/2025 21:11

@InterestedDad37 no wonder the poor man was partial to a gin & whiskey, being married to Maggie.
Despite all her faults & bad decisions she was a strong woman. She had balls of steel compared to the hapless showers we've had in power since her demise. I'd rather have her as a leader if we ever went to war then any pm we've had since

Millytante · 13/12/2025 21:12

PinkPanther57 · 13/12/2025 21:01

As an aside those that knew her suggest Marg had no sense of humour at all & was likely autistic.

Show quote history

Remember how she shocked Kingsley Amis (who fancied her rotten) when at a reception at No 10 she told Philip Larkin that her favourite poem of his was that one which features ‘all those knives in a drawer’ (as well as child abuse).
She definitely wasn’t a fan of anybody’s poetry, but she enjoyed attention from men like those two!

God, get her out of my head.
Still, remember Private Eye used to run a brilliant column of Dennis’ letters, where he’d often refer to Herself getting stuck into the electric soup in the small hours (ie Scotch).
It’s thought that she rather overdid the stuff, on top of barely sleeping = brain blips.

SarahAndQuack · 13/12/2025 21:12

Maddyisqueen · 13/12/2025 21:10

She was queen

it went
Henry
edward
mary
Elizabeth
and then the Stuart’s

jane grey for 9 days after Edward I think

Edited

Show quote history

The poster means if she were queen directly after Henry.

This thread is about alternative versions of history and how they might have happened, not about what did happen?

MissFancyDay · 13/12/2025 21:12

Maddyisqueen · 13/12/2025 21:10

She was queen

it went
Henry
edward
mary
Elizabeth
and then the Stuart’s

jane grey for 9 days after Edward I think

Edited

Show quote history

I meant Queen with no Elizabeth to follow

InterestedDad37 · 13/12/2025 21:13

Soashamed60 · 13/12/2025 21:11

@InterestedDad37 no wonder the poor man was partial to a gin & whiskey, being married to Maggie.
Despite all her faults & bad decisions she was a strong woman. She had balls of steel compared to the hapless showers we've had in power since her demise. I'd rather have her as a leader if we ever went to war then any pm we've had since

Yes, she was a strong woman, and she had other strengths too, but she was quite the opposite of popular round my way.