Long term issues when someone with MH issues doesn’t get help and is sheltered at home.

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Apologies to sound harsh and uncaring, but if anything I am significantly understating the severity of the situation and at this point my primary concern has to be protecting DC.

We have this situation with SIL. Diagnosed MH issues, but has never got help or left home. She does work in a limited way (via a Gov route - not UK - that makes it practically impossible to curtail, despite conflict), but struggles with most people and is also extremely difficult to be around. If she doesn’t like a situation (not necessarily a predictable reason why) she will manipulate it at any cost. Rages out of nowhere. DC are terrified. I have drawn a boundary to protect DC. DH is pathetic and has not been able to find and hold reasonable boundaries, that would actually enable us to provide support. I would divorce him but don’t want shared custody with the potential for unsupervised exposure to the aunt a big factor (I have a lot of sympathy, but the rages and manipulation can only be described as terrifying - apologies to sound so harsh, but it is the reality).

PIL seem trapped by it. SIL basically controls any access to GC, so PIL don’t really have a relationship despite living nearby - we absolutely do not want childcare help, as DC could not be exposed to this). SIL also blocked home help from the house when PIL needed it. I did intervene/get DH to intervene at this point.

What were PiL thinking about the future. How could this ever end well? They are now reaching the end. There isn’t really a plan for what will happen. A decade or so ago I thought they were kind and protective. Now they are reaching the end it is clear the situation is dire. I worry they may just expect her to move in with us, but it would be decimation of family life and a legitimate concern (based on things that have happened) would be danger to DC.

It horrifies me to think this is not an isolated case. I guess provision of care is majorly lacking for people with significant MH issues who do have some independence. In this case when the family protects (shields) them and do not encourage independence it is at a huge detriment to the future of the person kept at home. Maybe this level of shielding is because of decisions made decades ago when concerns/stigma was different. Siblings and their partners will often have to step in when they have children at home.

YANBU. Independence has to be encouraged and plans made for a secure future. People cannot be shielded until parents reach the end, as the situation is likely to get worse.

YABU. PIL did the right thing.

Do you mean your DC or SILs DC? Does she have DC?

@BlueberryOats my DC (me and DH). SIL does not have DC and is extremely intolerant of children - not just mine, others in the family and local area. It is a shame, I think she wants to be close to nieces and nephews but explodes when they do not act as she expects and also has very restrictive/bizarre rules they have to follow when visiting. She has also made changes to PIL‘s house that make it difficult to visit with small children.

She’s made changes to the house that make it difficult for children?
I can’t begin to imagine what that means? She keeps knives sellotaped to the tv?
She insists on drinking bleach before every meal?

Your children are under your protection, if they can’t be near her obvs you are doing the right thing restricting access.

Yes, plans need to be made for the inevitable, and this would ideally come from the parents, but if they won’t what can you do?

YABU. Sounds like your PiL did their best for their daughter at the time. Fear of what will happen to her when they die is natural and felt by most parents of disabled, dependent adults.

@Newyeargymwanker things like the stair gate being taken down without warning. A food a DC was diagnosed intolerant to bought and put on the table (we never saw it before). Also some really poisonous items persistently moved into child‘s reach - we stopped visiting PIL after this as even wet lettuce DH was spooked. Obviously everyone watches toddlers, but this felt like the hazards were more than random.

Future plans don’t seem to have been made. I hope there is not just an assumption she will move in with us. I wouldn’t subject DC to this and would move out with them.

Does she have a diagnosis op? Is she able to live independently?

@TooBigForMyBoots Obviously they did just want to protect her. But they have created a sort of bubble where she calls all the shots and everyone rushes to placate her. Over the years she has become more and more controlling and intolerant. With professional help and a supportive push she may have been able to live with others. It is really difficult, but there doesn’t seem to be any future planning.

@SomedayIllBeSaturdayNight Yes to a diagnosis. Unfortunately no professional help. When she was younger she probably could have lived independently. But after decades living at home and shadowing PIL more and more she seems to have lost independence and become extremely rigid.

I would make a referral to social services both for the safety of your in laws but also your SIL.
If SIL is not under mental health services it could be worth getting your dh to book a GP app for her and attend with SIL so that he can pass along the decline with SIL. I would push for a referral to a mental health team. Failing this you can contact SIL GP via email or letter and state your concerns. The GP will obviously be unable to give you any information regarding SIL but raising your concerns should trigger them to make contact with SIL for a review in person.

As I don’t know what diagnoses SIL has, it’s difficult to talk about, but imo it can be unrealistic to talk about independence. What it really leads to is self neglect.

For instance, DD has come across patients who are sectioned for being psychotic in public places. They may go to sleep in trees and on pavements, despite having a council flat. Once in an inpatient unit, they get regular food, drinks, meds, and sleep, through living in a routine, where other people take care of them, by doing the shopping, making the meals, keeping the place clean, talking to them, etc. Once they are stable again on the meds, they go back to their council flat.

There they don’t eat properly, may only drink one lunchbox juice carton a day, never do their hair (so it ends up matted), and don’t take their meds. They are socially isolated and spend their time on their own - hence the sleeping on pavements to be among people. They end up being sectioned again, but this time, they lose their clothes, their laptop, etc in the inpatient unit.

These may be intelligent people, such as graduates.

They are not assessed by social workers as needing care, and are not even under the CMHT for mental health support between admissions. All they get is a council flat and benefits.

DD walked out of her job two and a half years ago, and basically since then, she has lazed about in bed all day, playing on her phone and is then up all night. She doesn’t do any housework, shopping, exercise, cooking, you name it - I think she does wash her clothes. She can do these things (she’s very bright, but cannot organise herself to save her life) but won’t citing chronic fatigue. Her OH works full time, does the cooking, the life admin and they go shopping together at weekends.

I don’t know what future planning you expect PILs to do? Nobody has ever offered us any help in planning for DD long term. I have no idea how long single people with severe mental health conditions are on the waiting list for a council flat, but here LHA won’t pay enough for a room in a shared house.

@BlueandWhitePorcelain So sorry about the situation your DD has.

SIL has OCD diagnosed. There has never been any therapy. State and private options were available. They live in a bubble with more and more rules/isolation.

I cannot see how SIL will manage alone. I am very concerned there is no planning and an assumption DH will take over, with her moving in with us. even short visits are extremely difficult. Upsets and rages range from me driving my own car (apparently she thought DH should be the only one to drive it - no reason why, he actually has points and I don’t), what is grown in the garden to things we can change such as the contents of the fridge. Obviously we try and accommodate as much as possible. Not wearing jewelry (am not flash at all), giving the house a deep clean, etc. But some of it is completely unpredictable. Plus DC are sometimes the target and that is where my boundary is.

@Twittwoooodoyou I did force DH to intervene when medical care was needed. He did and the crisis was resolved. I think that would have been the point to push for a broader referral. I will look into it and see if it is possible when no immediate action is required.

Thank you. It really feels like it is at a point where there aren’t many/any options.

I should add it is rages, plus malicious meddling that would be marriage ending if believed. Where it crossed a line for me is when DC were spoken to inappropriately and in a way that caused huge distress, with no factual basis. Hence very low contact. I would like to leave DH and have no contact, but the prospect of any level of shared custody is concerning.

I understand it must have been very difficult for PIL, but also it feels like they really dodged the issues and have left it to the siblings (or more the siblings partners who she turns on) to face insurmountable challenges.

I also understand how difficult it must be for SIL. But the red lines that were crossed means all my efforts are in protecting DC.

It’s called magical thinking.

The general advice is to not let the rules get more extreme. For instance, DD used to ask me, if I had cut the raw chicken and salad vegetables on the same chopping board? I was told to say to her:

”I am only going to say this once, and I am not saying it again. I chop the raw chicken, then I wash my hands, and do the salad on a different chopping board with a different knife. I don’t want salmonella any more than you do!”

PILs may not know what to do? I only knew, because DD1 was under Social Services for physical health reasons. (There are two aspects to Social Services - child protection, and the disabled). DH needs to discuss with PILs if they can discuss with SIL, if she would be willing to ask Adult Social Services for an assessment of need for herself.

PILs are legally fully entitled to say, they are not prepared to do any care of SIL any longer. There’s nothing Social Services likes more, than to put down the family will provide all care, which lets them off the hook. However, if the family refuse, or say they are only going to do x,y,z moving forwards, then Social Services has to assess her fully for social care.

As part of the assessment of need, SIL would have to undergo a financial assessment? If she were living in her own house, and needed carers to go into her house, she’s not entitled to that, if she has over £23,250 in assets, not including the house. There’s a sliding scale down to about £14,000 - if she has less assets than that, Social Services has to pay for all the social care. If as is likely, she’s not working and has no income/assets other than her benefits, then Social Services has to pay all the costs of her social care. She could ask as part of that, to be put on the housing list.

Then, regardless of what she does, PILs can ask Adult Social Services for a carers’ assessment on them. They are entitled to respite, and there should be a contingency plan for SIL, in case an emergency happens to them.

It is better for you and DH to get PILs to think about this now, rather than on the day of the death of the second parent. You would also be entitled on that day, to tell Adult Social Services, you are not going to do any caring of SIL, and she can’t live with you, so it’s up to them. Be firm. Social Services will do their best to blackmail you emotionally to look after her. No adult in England is legally obliged to care for another adult - the responsibility lies with Social Services.

I meant care assessment for SIL.

My DB and SIL are in a similar situation. My SIL brother is a schizophrenic in his late 60s. He always lived with his parents but they have both died and he had to move in with my DB and SIL. Has never been able to work. Is tolerable when he is on his meds but frequently doesn't take them. My niece, my brothers only child, is the only family member left if my brother and his wife die. My niece has said that the day after their funerals she will be sending her uncle to live in a home/institution equipped to take care of him. She refuses to have her life overtaken by this because of poor planning for his care in the past.

What does DH think?
I totally see why you don't want your DCs mixed up with this woman, but you seem to be presuming that DH has or will have no choice but to care for SIL. It seems slightly strange that you are thinking about leaving your husband to protect you kids unless he has said he will move his sister in with you all. Even though he's her brother, he has no obligation to care for her.

Just don’t go round there!
If the stair gate is removed or food your Dc can’t eat just keep your eye on them - that’s what parents have to do.
Why would she move in with you at any time? The woman has a mental illness, that doesn’t mean you have to pander to them.

People are offering very good advice based on the UK - are you able to confirm which country you live in?

You cannot see how she could manage alone but you definitely don't want any part in her care or letting her live with you. That is fair enough, she's an adult and is not your responsibility.

She does not have a learning or development disorder preventing her from doing normal day to day things. She may be too depressed or mentally unwell to do them though. But that's on her.

If she refuses help then she won't have any help. Sadly. Unless it gets to life threatening then she may be sectioned.

You need to just bring your kids to see their GPs when she's not there, or they come to you.

Just don't think about her and her possible issues once her parents pass away. As you say you are unwilling to offer any direct support in any case.

Thanks. Germany. Similar, but much more bureaucratic. Many more help options available here. None of them used.

@BillieWiper She is extremely difficult, particularly with non-immediate family. I wish PIL had sought support several decades ago. Now DH is the only one who could guide her towards therapy. He won’t address the issue at all and denies there is a problem when pushed. He can be toxic, but I suspect he grew up where the issues were shielded. Despite it being very, very obvious (not my opinion, but for example the state of the house - extremely clean, but massive restrictions on areas to the point they are taped off).

If we visit she is always with PIL, generally offering a running commentary on DC and my ‘failures’ as a parent (not encouraging DC to eat a food they have a diagnosed intolerance to, etc., etc.). GC are on their best behavior and not left to roam around because of hazards in the house. If PIL visits us she always joins. It is like they are traveling with a young teenager, but who they daren’t contradict. It has really limited the relationship DC have with this set of grandparents.

The above sounds awful. I do care, but cannot begin to get across how bad and damaging the situation is. It isn’t so much I am unwilling to offer direct support. She has demonstrated through her actions again and again she poses a threat to DC with emotional abuse and doing things that put them in danger. It is this that has made a boundary necessary.

I will try to give it less thought. Getting it out anonymously helps plus I will somehow follow the advice to seek intervention from social services. Just working out when it is appropriate.

I think you might be overestimating what help could have been available - she is an adult and the circumstances in which she can be forced to be "treated" are limited. And try not to heap all of the blame on PIL. All of us are limited by what we can handle and in difficult circumstances people are reduced to just getting through to the next day. It takes resources beyond what some families have to deal with the "big picture" stuff, an it gets harder over time. It's hard enough with children but for adults the options are even more limited. Plus, more generally there is no point regretting or casting blame for the past. The only things that can change are from today onwards so concentrate on that.

I hope you do manage to find some more support for her and for the family.

@stichguru DH can be very toxic and I would like to leave him, but do not want to risk shared custody. He is either sulking or in Disney dad mode. One of the factors is he will go through periods where he completely denies any issues with his sister to the point he allows her to emotionally abuse DC. I do not want this to go on unchecked.

SIL has dropped heavy hints about living with us and treats our house as hers when she visits with PIL. DH does nothing to stop her interfering/binning anything she disapproves of/etc., when she visits. PIL and DH just sit there. If I ask her to please stop she explodes and then am the bad guy for upsetting her.

You cant fix this.
SIL is ill and needs professional help and support.
I would be pushing ILs and DH to get a social services assessment and pyschiatric (sp) assessment.
Its good services are better in Germany than here so hopefully they can get help for her.
Its a very difficult and heartbreaking situation for your PILs.
My dad had serious mental illness and I used to live in fear of suffering myself and now I fear for my DCs, its not easy.
I know its hard but remember it is an illness not malicious but you are right to protect your DCs from it.
I expect your PILs are worn down and broken by it.