That prayer to Jesus is inappropriate at a company party?

[Kate8889]

I went with my husband to a company Christmas party and before we started to eat a woman came to the microphone and said a short prayer in the name of Jesus as thanks/blessings for the food. Everyone was expected to bow their head.

This is the first time I've been witness to something like this, it is a secular company with many Jewish, Muslim and agnostic people. We have been going to this Christmas party for 7 years and it's never been like this.

it’s a common misconception that the origins are non-Christian.

The suggestion isn't that "the origins are non-Christian". It is that various earlier traditions got rolled in early on, such that the word "Christmas" refers to several different celebrations/traditions, all of equal validity and importance.

Whether Christians like it or not, there is a huge set of secular traditions that are celebrated by non-Christians who use the term "Christmas" due to the many overlaps with the Christian festival. Those traditions have as much importance as the Christian ones and its really rude to be dismissive of them. I'm not Christian and never have been, you won't see a nativity scene in my home, but you will see an evergreen tree and wreath, lots of candles, seasonal feasting and foods (nuts, oranges etc).

@Rhayader

When you say " except that the Eastern Orthodox Church also celebrate Christmas around the same time of year and they did not celebrate saturnalia.".

Considering the Eastern Orthodox Church was not founded till 1054, it's not surprising they did not do saturnalia. In any case, nobody is saying the early Church done Saturnalia, they are saying it was appropriated/ stolen/subsumed/ converted by the early Church, specifically the Romans. It was a Roman thing after all.

You also contradict yourself. You say decorated trees was started as (Goodwins alert) Nazi propaganda, then say it was a German pagan thing. What came first, the Nazis or the Pagans ? Then you say it was medieval. What one is it ?

This is fine and you can do whatever you want. Many non religious people enjoy doing things that began as religious or even still are. Many atheists love attending carol services.. James Partridge had a set at Glastonbury singing assembly songs and it was so popular they had to close the entrance to the field!

it’s just that I used to hold both of these misconceptions (Christmas trees and saturnalia) but once I looked into academic research I found I was wrong so I thought it was worth mentioning.

What I do find really frustrating about threads like these is the word “offence”. I wouldn’t be offended by a prayer from any religion at a work Christmas party. I would think it was inappropriate, annoying, cloth eared and unprofessional. There are responses apart from total acceptance or offence. The only circumstances where I can imagine it possibly being appropriate is if it was an overtly Christian organization. Or (just thought of this one!) if it’s a formal dinner at something like one of the Inns of Court or a Livery Company that has a Grace that’s been said every year since the Reformation.

I used to hold both of these misconceptions (Christmas trees and saturnalia) but once I looked into academic research I found I was wrong so I thought it was worth mentioning.

I've read quite a lot on it as well. Can you post links to the academic research you've read?

it is deeply inappropriate

In my long experience of the world of education, objections to Christian traditions and practices in schools came from over-thinking white people in County Hall, and never from other religious or ethnic groups.

The Muslims and Hindus I met understood and respected religious observance. This might not be a universal attitude, but it was where I worked.

(I'm an agnostic but worked at one time in a C of E school, with many families from other religious groups and they were always cool with the nativity plays, Easter services etc, as was I, being culturally Christian and not giving a hoot about hyprocrisy etc if it was fun and interesting).

I’m not religious, but I think a prayer at a Christmas party isn’t that wild? It’s literally a Christmas party…

But some do - if they want to pray, they can, if you dont believe, you quietly just let the prayer pass you by. People need to respectfully accept that both belief systems exist and both are OK.

Can you post a link to the academic research ?

I just done a search, and first paper I got says Pagan, and Saturnalia.

(PDF) Origins of Christmas (academia.edu)

Interested in what you’ve read?

This is probably the best summary https://www.jstor.org/stable/23358685

essentially: saturnalia ran from 17-23rd December so having Christmas just after would be a stupid way to distract.

Some people say “oh well it replaced Sol invictus which was 25th but the earliest evidence of it being celebrated on the 25th was from 274ad and the evidence is that it was moved to this date to distract from Christmas.

It was established Jewish tradition that great prophets died on the same day they were conceived - it’s known at the integral age theory if you want to look it up.

also see: william tighe, celebrating Christmas (2003), Andrew mcgowen, how December 25th became christmas (2002)

- if they want to pray, they can, if you dont believe, you quietly just let the prayer pass you by.

No one is objecting to private prayer. The problem is that this individual couldn't resist pushing it on others. Why did it need to be shared publicly if not coming from a place of "spreading the word of Jesus". It's the spreading the word part that is unwelcome.

I can imagine a church-going staff member approaching a manager to suggest a blessing in the spirit of Christmas and them thinking “We’re going to have to allow this or we’ll be all over the Daily Mail on Monday morning”.

”BRITISH COMPANY BAN CHRIST FROM CHRISTMAS IN A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY”

This author does not appear to be a religious studies researcher, they teach business courses. And this isn’t published in an academic journal either, this is just a self publish of their idea which is debunked by most researchers int christian history (it’s the sol invictus theory I mentioned above). This is their cv: csde.academia.edu/NicolaeSfetcu/CurriculumVitae

Rhyader

No one is really fussed about what determines the precise day Christmas is celebrated on. Thats a very Christian focus, atheists tend to view the festivities as seasonal.

What is clearly true:

• Saturnalia predates the birth of Christ (see writings BCE from roman Republic eg Livy, Cicero, Catullus) & was celebrated at a similar time of year
• the modern Christmas festival covers the same time period & shares similar traditions of feasting and gift giving.

The likelihood is that traditions were shared/borrowed between various festivals.

Or they could quietly pray and let the non prayers get on with it? Just a thought. It’s even recomended in the Bible!

Were you never nine?

This is probably the best summary https://www.jstor.org/stable/23358685

This is from Church History, the journal of the American society of church history, its a Christian focussed society, so hardly unbiased. Its focussed on the identification of the date of Christmas rather than considering the origins of the festive traditions many people celebrate today.

Lots of people are fussed about this. I accept that it is a tangent to the thread though! Just a bit of a nerdy interest of mine (the studies of religions in general).

interested in why you think the Eastern Orthodox church also decided to celebrate Christmas around the same time of year if it comes from saturnalia? And if you know anything about saturnalia is really is quite different to Christmas (although gift giving is shared between them — generally joke gifts though for some weird reason). It was mostly a holiday where slaves and masters swapped places in their social roles.

I Can't access that paper by the American society of Church History, I can just get the first page.

I did find an interview with the author of that article though.

Interview - Dr. Philipp Nothaft on the Date of Christmas - History for Atheists

And note this bit from above " But Philipp and several other recent scholars have bolstered an alternative theory that seems to fit the evidence better, as he’ll discuss with me today."

It's not settled then.

Good link you posted. But not enough to covert me :-)

Not all Christian researchers are Christian! Probably the most famous researcher of Christianity is a well known atheist (Bart Ehrman)

Well a couple of ladies I worked with told me just that. They enjoyed the hymns and the sense of belonging. It never threatened their own religious identities. They were also nostalgic about the British school food of their childhoods.

@Peridoteage

I suspect that if, following Mavis' prayer, Clive from IT Support had got up and said, 'I'd like you all to join me in a worshipful supplication to our demon Lord Lucifer to watch over us this evening and bestow upon us the gift of his hot chaos and malevolence as we revel and debauch,' then Mavis might have been disinclined to bow the respectful head, except to hurriedly text HR.

If you’re looking for something accessible (both, not a paywall and easy to understand) then religion for breakfast is a great YouTube channel for popular research videos on all religions and he’s done a video on it.

I am familiar with it ta, but can't access sorry because I am in a country with very restricted internet.

You mentioned Bart Ehrman to a PP though, and he is in the Pagan origin camp.

So there is that. The article you posted above is far from the scholarly consensus.