We need to talk about men needing to be partners, not 'providers and protectors'

[Echobelly]

I see a lot of messaging, especially in the 'manosphere' but some outside it too that men's role in relationships is to 'provide and protect'. In this day and age, though, that's an outdated model. Marriage has for a very long time not been the only way for women to get money to pat for anything, so we're not going to swoon over a guy just for earning money. For most couples, both need to work, plenty of women now outearn men and men can't expect to be forgiven having to give any help at home because they are out 'providing' (this was never a particularly fair deal anyway given women's unpaid labour). And we're not going off to war every 5 minutes these days, so the 'protect' part seems a bit redundant, especially when we know that intimate partners are the biggest risk to women.

But too many people still talk about things as that's all women want or need and - a man with a job who might be able to shout threateningly if you happened to have a break in at your house. And it sets men up to fail because the parameters are so different from the world this idea was based on.

I think a key source of disappointment and disillusionment for women is men just not being real partners in a relationship and as parents. And it seems they need to be told this - to know that their wives/partners are working (whether earning or not) and you don't just get to come home and say you're too tired from 'working hard' to help. Or that if you don't have kids, female partners aren't there to run your life with you or do all the management of your family and social life. Men need to be full participants in relationships, not virtual bystanders whose only job is to bring in money - and the way we talk to men and boys and bring up our kids should reflect this.

Now, now. I'll have you know low-level workplace bullying is how Hitler got started.

Half of the human race have started a war? 🤔

Wonder if the people that bang on about violent men also think all black people sell drugs and all Muslims are terrorists.

I think you might want to work on your thinking if you don’t grasp the difference between ‘All black people sell drugs’ and ‘Men commit the vast majority of violent crimes globally’.

Well, I'm clearly doing this wrong. Perhaps somebody could make a list of the demographics it's OK to discriminate against.

Like, I saw a thread on here a while back titled 'All men are filthy losers'. Even a dumdum like me knows you probably couldn't start a thread saying all benefits claimants are filthy losers. So what's the criteria?

If it's based on statistics then can we talk shit about the ethnic minorities that are 'over represented at every stage of the criminal justice system'?

What about those that are over represented in sex crimes? Usually people on here get quite irate when that's discussed.

Low level bullying is also often how domestic violence/coercive control starts. 💡

Are you suggesting that men as a class are suffering from discrimination?

Loving the idea that because a few posters on MN (which has a lot of male posters, as we can see) are upset at work, this is evidence of women being more aggressive and violent than men. I mean, if you think Daily Fail is gospel and MN is a completely apt representation of the totality of female nature...what a world you inhabit!

You can use AI now, which might not quite coincide with your world view but does actually use real sources, often with the data linked. Here is a simple one, seeing as we are playing lazy thinking:

Men commit significantly more violent crime than women, consistently accounting for the vast majority (around 70-80% or more) of violent offenders, perpetrators of murder, and convictions, though women commit a larger proportion of certain offenses like child cruelty or domestic abuse (as victims/perpetrators in specific dynamics), with key drivers often linked to gender socialization, social status, and substance abuse.
Key Statistics & Trends (UK/General)

• Overall Offending: Males make up the majority of individuals in the criminal justice system (e.g., 78% of defendants in 2023 UK) and account for over 80% of all crimes committed.
• Violent Crime: Men are disproportionately responsible for violent crime. In one Scottish study, 73% of violent incidents involved male offenders only.
• Serious Offences: Men commit nearly all murder and rape convictions (over 90-99%).
• Arrests: For violence against the person, males account for a larger proportion of arrests than females (e.g., 44% of male arrests vs. 55% of female arrests in 2021/22 for violence against person, but males still far outnumber females in total arrests for this).
• Domestic Abuse: While men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of domestic abuse, a higher proportion of women experience coercive control and intimate partner violence.

Why the Difference?

• Socialization & Gender Roles: Traditional gender roles may socialize males to be more aggressive and females to be more passive, influencing offending patterns.
• Social Status & Inequality: Some theories suggest that as women gain social equality, their crime rates might rise, but overall rates remain lower due to systemic disadvantages.
• Persistence: A small group of persistent offenders, typically male and often with substance abuse or personality disorders, commit a large percentage of violent crimes.

In essence, while women's involvement in crime has increased faster in recent decades, men remain the dominant group in overall crime statistics, particularly violent and severe offenses, with statistics highlighting gendered patterns in types of crimes committed.

Rightly or wrongly my dh loves to provide. Not to control, or expect anything in return, he genuinely enjoys providing for his family. Doesn’t stop him doing beyond his fair share of the housework.

If somebody made a thread titled 'All Romanians are filthy losers' would you consider that discrimination?

What would it say about the level of objection to it if it was allowed to stay up and the majority of votes agreed that Romanians were indeed filthy losers?

@cupfinalchaos Do you also equally provide?

Not in the way dh does. Very few people could provide at that level but I like to think I made up for it in other ways.

@cupfinalchaos Do you work?

I’m about to start a part time job in something I’ve always wanted to do, but due to paying tax on dh’s company am going to ask to be voluntary as there wouldn’t be much point in being paid.

@cupfinalchaos If you're working and earning a wage doesn't that give you a sense of achievement/contributing though? Regardless of how wealthy your husband is?

Not at all. I don’t need a sense of achievement, I’ve ran successful businesses in the past and am now content with my family and life. A job would have to add to that, and I’m hoping the one I’m about to start will, even if I don’t take a salary.

Where to even start....

Well, first off I was right that somebody would call me a man. 😂 Typical response when somebody disagrees on here, which is a bit odd considering that nowadays most women don't identify as feminists and instead espouse 'equality' - obv they believe the two aren't synonymous. So it's highly likely that somebody who disagrees with the typical feminist dogma is actually female.

Secondly, where on earth have you got the idea that women falling out at work is anything to do with violence? Maybe reread the thread and refresh yourself on what I was replying to - hint: it's actually quoted in the reply.

Thirdly, maybe actually reply to the point being made rather than post a load of random stuff everyone already knows.

Men perpetrate most of their violence against other men. In terms of DV, women actually perpetrate it more often than men going by the vast majority of studies, including the biggest DV metastudy ever conducted which involved over 100 university academics from 20 universities in UK/US/Canada working alongside DV associations and charities.

They read over 10,000 previous studies and analysed in detail the data from 1,200 of these studies, all peer reviewed. Look it up for yourself. It's called the 'Partner Abuse State of Knowledge' and is by far the most detailed analysis to date.

People usually only use crime stats which are the only ones that contradict the thousands of other studies. In the UK, women perpetrate about 30% of DV according to these. However, it's well known that men under report, usually for fear of being seen as 'weak', fear of being separated from their children, and also because there just aren't really many services for them - some in the past have literally been told "sorry, there's no local services that can help you".

The charity Mankind have done extensive research in this area and state that men are 2.4x less likely to report DV than women and most of their service users answer that they wouldn't have got in touch if the service wasn't anonymous.

So, you have DV associations/experts stating that men are much less likely to report abuse and the crime stats seemingly support this claim. Then you have thousands of studies showing that women are slightly more likely to perpetrate DV, even though men are more likely to kill their partner (which you'd expect with the size/strength disparity).

Surveys usually need to be taken with a pinch of salt, but when you have thousands of them all showing similar results it's hard to dismiss. Especially when women are more likely to report being abusers than men are to report being victims - supports the claim that men are too embarrassed to report as really the number of abusers should be quite close to the number of victims.

But anyway I think you've hit the nail on the head with your below quote.

A small group of persistent offenders, typically male and often with substance abuse or personality disorders, commit a large percentage of violent crimes.

It's a small group of persistent offenders and most men are normal functioning members of society that we don't need to worry about. 👍

@GaIadriel I've had this too! Because I said that I had a duty to provide for my own biological children and don't expect it from a stepparent - then I must be a man. No - I am a woman who takes financial responsibility for my own kids.
I see myself as a feminist - but in the sense of equality rather than the typical "when it suits me" brigade - I then was torn apart...for being married to a man!!

So here’s a radical concept: not all men are naturally protective, and not all women expect to be protected. Perhaps it’s possible that we all want different things from relationships, and that’s ok?

But in my personal opinion, it goes beyond women being able (in some cases) to be able to earn as much as a man, and therefore not requiring ‘protection’ or ‘looking after’. That’s very simplistic. I’m a woman, I earn more than my partner, but I also take on WAY more of the housework, childcare and life admin, AND I have one week in four where I am ruined through menstrual and perimenopausal bollocks, brain fog, fatigue, etc etc. And on that basis I think men should pick up some slack, open doors or whatever and acknowledge that it’s really fucking hard being a woman.

@Viewsaremyown Why do it? Why tolerate it? Tell your husband to step up! My first husband did pretty much naff all at home - one of the many reasons he is an ex.

People on here can be bonkers. 🤣

Usually, it's something like pointing out that you can't tar all three million of a demographic due to something less than 100 of them do. But people take great offence in not being agreed with and it turns into a bunfight where you get accused of being some kind of spokesperson for said group. Or a man. 🤣🤣🤣

The problem with some feminists is that they've become a bit like the transwomen who are used to everybody falling over themselves to listen to them. They don't like being told no or disagreed with.

Thankfully, it's usually just the ones that are in it to berate people rather than actually help women.

@GaIadriel The "feminists" that bother me are the ones that only seem to want equal rights when it suits them. Example: "As a feminist I can choose whether or not I am in paid employment and yes, I do expect my husband/partner to be the sole earner. I can choose whatever it is I want, when I want"
My take: As a feminist I am capable of working and earning in exactly the same way that my husband does. I do not need, nor do I want, to be provided for.