We need to talk about men needing to be partners, not 'providers and protectors'

[Echobelly]

I see a lot of messaging, especially in the 'manosphere' but some outside it too that men's role in relationships is to 'provide and protect'. In this day and age, though, that's an outdated model. Marriage has for a very long time not been the only way for women to get money to pat for anything, so we're not going to swoon over a guy just for earning money. For most couples, both need to work, plenty of women now outearn men and men can't expect to be forgiven having to give any help at home because they are out 'providing' (this was never a particularly fair deal anyway given women's unpaid labour). And we're not going off to war every 5 minutes these days, so the 'protect' part seems a bit redundant, especially when we know that intimate partners are the biggest risk to women.

But too many people still talk about things as that's all women want or need and - a man with a job who might be able to shout threateningly if you happened to have a break in at your house. And it sets men up to fail because the parameters are so different from the world this idea was based on.

I think a key source of disappointment and disillusionment for women is men just not being real partners in a relationship and as parents. And it seems they need to be told this - to know that their wives/partners are working (whether earning or not) and you don't just get to come home and say you're too tired from 'working hard' to help. Or that if you don't have kids, female partners aren't there to run your life with you or do all the management of your family and social life. Men need to be full participants in relationships, not virtual bystanders whose only job is to bring in money - and the way we talk to men and boys and bring up our kids should reflect this.

Source for the claim “women fall out with each other more often than men do.”

The source is good old internalised misogyny. With anecdata about single-six spaces and how once some poster worked in an office with Mean Girls.

Perhaps your husband is a passive individual.

Have you ever looked out the window at the real world?

Yes. I saw a squirrel running up a tree.

It's not about 'the real world'. It's more people reading stuff and getting themselves in a lather over things that happen extremely infrequently to strangers.

The below thread may be of interest. Funnily enough it turned into a load of women bitterly squabbling because some disagreed that women often don't get on. 🤣🤣🤣

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3080265-Women-prefer-working-for-male-bosses

Note, there's a typo in the opening post where OP says women prefer female bosses when she actually means they prefer male bosses.

Some excerpts from said thread....

Women dislike having a female boss at work even more than men do, a new study has revealed.

Nearly 40 per cent of female workers in America would rather be led by a man, a Gallup survey found.

In contrast, just 26 per cent of men would prefer a male boss.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2797279/women-dislike-having-female-boss-workplace-men-study-finds.html

CBS Local — A survey by MSN found that both men and women prefer to work with men rather than women in the workplace. The survey is believed to be as accurate as a scientific poll. Nearly 500,000 people supplied answers.

MSN found that 20 percent of men and 21 percent of women preferred to work with men, compared to just 6 percent of each men and women preferring to work with women.

minnesota.cbslocal.com/2017/08/04/men-women-work-study/amp/

A study found two women are less likely to cooperate than two men when one is more powerful than the other.

Similarly, two females of different rank are less likely to work together than a man and a woman.

The finding contradicts the widely held belief that women’s nurturing nature makes it natural for them to help each other out, while men are too competitive to have time for each other.

Harvard University researcher Joyce Benenson, one of the study’s authors, said that women’s instinctive distrust of females in power may make it more difficult for them to scale the career ladder.

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2572235/Women-HATE-office-Females-operate-better-male-bosses-study-finds.html

None of that is evidence for the claim that “women fall out either each other more than men do”.

It’s a source for completely different talking points.

I am not talking about police or fire officers simply doing a job they are paid to do.

Yup, simply running into a burning building or disarming a knife wielding nutter. Not like they have a choice in their career and actually chose to do a dangerous job saving lives.

Why don't women choose these jobs? They moan enough about them being male dominated. Why not lead by example?

Sorry, what exactly are you trying to prove with all of your Daily Fail links?
Nearly 40 per cent of female workers in America would rather be led by a man, a Gallup survey found.
So60% would prefer a female boss. Not sure what your argument is.

It’s a job they are paid to do. Assisting people for compensation is rather different to simply coming to aid of somebody in distress with no ulterior motive. For the latter it’s primarily women who have assisted me.

Sometimes all is revealed when you actually read the article. 🤗 There was also a 'no preference' choice.

Yes we know that misogyny is the norm and that not even women can escape holding misogynist beliefs but your links have nothing to do with your claim that “women fall out with each other more than men do”.

Source?

I'm not clicking on a Fail link just cos some troll trying to tell women we hate each other tells me to. Thanks but no thanks.

"Bitterly squabbling" could be reframed as debate you know, or discussion. It is a forum after all and we don't have to hold hands and sing together.

Look at MN. Women expect men to pay for dates.

They expect the man to propose because it's "traditional", even if they're living together and even have children outside of marriage.

They want their partners to ask their father for permission to marry them because "it's the respectful thing to do" and "it would mean a lot to my dad", yet it would never enter their heads to ask his mother for permission.

They give the children their surname because "mine is too hard to spell/too unusual/not unusual enough" (and strangely, the man's surname is somehow always nicer than the woman's).

I genuinely believed for a long time that marriage rates were falling because both sexes were increasingly considering marriage outdated. I was stunned when I reached my thirties and realised that a lot of "modern" women, who'd had children outside of marriage, had been secretly hoping for years that their partner would get down on one knee.

Women, broadly speaking, don't want to let go of traditional gender roles.

Well, I'll take facts/statistics over anecdotes, ta.

I think you meant remuneration rather than compensation, but still there's plenty of jobs where you don't have to risk your life. Again, why are men so much more likely to do jobs where they save people's lives? Aren't they supposed to be heartless violent killers? 🤔

I mean one in every 37,000 men murderered their wife last year! They're all killers!

If we're talking anecdotes, though, every video I've seen of a civilian rushing into a burning house to rescue somebody has been male.

This is a lot of anecdotal- would be interesting to see data sets.

Especially when you consider just how how many women seem to resent husbands who do little around the home (and that women are more likely to file for divorce.)

Asks for source......

.....won't read source.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

What statistics? We are talking about men being women’s “protectors”. You have simply talked about when men help people for money. That’s not a stat. It’s a discussion of a profession. Nurses and carers also help people. I would not use them as an example that women are men’s “emotional support”.

You seem unable to make a coherent point. The reality is men cannot be women’s “protectors” if most harm women face is from men.

I asked for a source and you have yet to supply one

So can we discount the work of women working for orgs like Women's Aid? They're just people doing a job for money as you put it.

The thing with people like you is that no source will ever be sufficient. And if it does look like it might actually challenge your beliefs you'll probs just refuse to read it or find some random excuse. I've seen it many times before now.

There's unlikely to be many peer reviewed studies on women falling out and having petty arguments. Anybody with half a brain would guess as much. What we have is numerous studies showing that women dislike working for other women even more than men do, are less likely to cooperate with other women at work, and won't help each other up the ladder (which they blame men for lol).

And anecdotally that thread is full of women talking about female bosses being work bullies and descends into petty squabbling that you don't really see much on men's forums.

I mean, you're getting all narky with another woman for saying women often don't get along. Don't you see the irony? 🤣

I predict I'll soon be accused of being a man.

Yes, it's anecdotal, but I'd be deeply surprised if MN were more patriarchal than the rest of the UK.

Current thread on yet another female manager bullying her female reports. 👀

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5455643-manager-is-making-my-life-hell?reply=149007201

What are you on about?? Women falling out with their female managers has got exactly nothing to do with macho BS on being “a protector and a provider”. That’s just whataboutery.

And you don’t think there might be a teeny, tiny difference between one woman bullying her reports and the female half of the human race habitually deploying violence and starting wars?