To dislike male cleaners in female public toilets?

[GarliceGran]

I travel a lot with work, mostly via train. For some bizarre reason, a huge amount of train stations have male cleaners for the female toilets. Worse yet, these men are often doing non-urgent cleaning, such as washing mirrors etc.

This makes me very uncomfortable. If I’m not desperate, I’ll often just walk out.

AIBU?

Just as ridiculous as thinking men would pretend to identify as women to enter women’s toilets and assault women, when they could just walk in off the street to do that anyway.

Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a shit.

I had to stop a woman trying to eject a man from the Unisex loos in the National Portrait Gallery yesterday. She looked pretty bloody foolish when I pointed out he had every right to be there.

The SC didn't set out to provide a comprehensive list of who could go into women's toilets. It simply clarified that if a space is designated single sex it's for the use of people of that sex and not the opposite sex. The judgement was long enough as it was without several appendices to say when it would be permissable for male cleaners, plumbers, locksmiths, paramedics, police officers et al to enter a women's toilet in the course of their jobs.
Which isn't at all the same thing as the unfettered ability for men declaring themselves women to go in and out as they please.
I agree female attendants are optimum. However keeping male ones while barring all other men is far better than the direction we were headed in prior to the judgement.

Did you Google the case at New Street Station? When arrested the sexual assailant was asked why he was in the women's toilets. He responded that he was trans.
This is actually really pertinent as if he was believed to be trans, then the case would have rested on his word against his victims, because as a 'transwoman' he was considered justified (at that time) in being in that space.
In a case where all men are barred from using women's toilets, his defence would have been weaker, as he would have no business being in there in the first place.

Laughed out loud at the thought of a male sexual predator going out to buy some 'spray and a cloth' (and a mop, presumably!) to go predating.

Unlikely doesn't even cover it.

Surely this would be the same situation if the assailant was a male cleaner who was allowed in the toilets?

It dosnt bother me, its not as though you sit there with the door open.

Yes, it would. Which is another reason I think female only attendants would be preferable.
You don't have to convince me there are potential risks of male attendants.
What I'm struggling with is why you seem to think that these risks mean we should layer on the additional risks of any man who feels like it using women's toilets.
I'll ask you again, what benefit to women would this bring to justify the additional risk?

I’m not saying that at all. My point was that the majority of responses in this thread seem to be saying male cleaners in women’s loos are no problem, and how that doesn’t seem to line up with the very strong ‘we must protect women-only spaces’ in other threads related to trans women using the loo etc. I’ve replied re benefit in a separate reply, will just link it, 1 sec.

@5128gap

If you can't see the difference, than that is a failing on your part and I can't help you.

We're frequently told on the FWR threads that men will go to any lengths, including dressing as women, entering the priesthood, or even qualifying as medical professionals, in order to access victims.

If the above is accepted, then why is the prospect of a man getting spray and a cloth to pose as a cleaner so outlandish?

Ah thank you. My apologies that I missed this earlier. So, you're saying the benefit of the increased risk to women is not to women, but to TW.
That's the point where I would be unable to agree with you. Partly because my concern for women is my priority. Partly because I'm a believer in managing risk based in the least harm to the fewest.
I can in no way justify a risk to 50% of the population to reduce a risk to less than 1%. Particularly as there is a double standard at play here. On one hand we are expected to see our risk from men in toilets as both tiny and unavoidable. Yet on the other the risk to TW from men in toilets us so great all women need to be put at risk to keep them safe.

That sounds a lot like something you’d say if you weren’t clear on it yourself…

Voting YABU.

I think my original point was similar in a way to your last one - it seemed like to me that on the one hand we’re supposed to see the legitimate presence of any male-bodied people in women’s spaces as too big a risk to cope with, and on the other hand the presence of male cleaners is fine if it means the loos are a bit cleaner. I think we’re not going to agree on the key points here, but I do appreciate having a proper discussion that doesn’t devolve to vitriol & insults 👍

So long as the toilets are clean and the cubicles have locks for me there is no problem. Toilets in some EU countries are unisex. I think this attitude is prudish, we all have the same needs as far as toilets are concerned, there are just not enough of them.

Yes, I understand. I think as i said before it boils down to individual women's risk assessment, considering likelihood, severity, mitigation, and balance against the percieved benefit of the risk. Which in our own ways both you and I have done, albeit with different conclusions about who carries the greatest risk, and who we wish to benefit.
I too appreciate the discussion. Its been interesting. Thank you for your responses to me.

Because it is pretty outlandish, and I don't think we're doing ourselves any favours by giving so much air space, and entertaining such a ridiculous level of fear, for such a very small threat.

The threat to women is very much NOT from theoretical random men disguised with a dress or a mop, and a public toilet is not, in almost all circumstances, a dangerous place.

Out of interest, I tried to get some figures for this. For the years 2013- 2023 the Met recorded a total of 210 cases of sexual offences in public toilets. This is appears to be all cases, so not just against women.

In 2023 The North Wales police recorded 0 cases for 18 and over, and 2 for under 18. Again, not just against women.

Women are hugely more at risk from people they know rather than random strangers - around 1.4 million women per year experience domestic violence.

Why there is suddenly all this noise about this on mn and elsewhere is a mystery to me, but I know I'm more concerned about the very real effect all this is having on my non-binary dc, than of getting attacked in the loo.

I don't mind at all. Often they will put a sign at the door to "warn" that they are cleaning, usually they clean all the stalls and washtabels in one go and they leave immediately. I have never felt threatened.

It doesnt bother me either, it would be different if they came in the cubicle and cleaned around you while you were doing your business!

Thanks for this.

The only thing that concerns me when using a public toilet is whether the toilet is unflushed and there is rubbish on the floor, and whether the door locks properly.

It can't be a great job to do and I am grateful for all who do it.

Well there’s a point. Should all women should be banned from working in male toilets? Disgusting that they’re allowed in? Imagine.

Mumsnet: misandry at its worst.

🙄

If not wanting a man to clean a toilet is 'misandry at its worst', then i don't think men have a lot to worry about. Doesn't really compare to misogyny at its worst, does it?
And yes, it would in my opinion be far better if women didn't have to clean men's toilets. It's hardly a privilege.