That these phone rules are reasonable for my DD?

[FlappicusSmith]

We've just given DD (12, yr8) a smart phone. She's had a Nokia brick since starting secondary, has been really responsible with it, etc. Smart phone is really locked down - only apps we approve, no social media, no WhatsApp, no YouTube. She basically just uses it for messaging, Finch, Duolingo, music, maps, etc.

However, since she got it, we've had two explosive (her) arguments around phone use. So, please tell me if you think this is reasonable or not? For info, she is (high-masking) autistic and adhd, probably with some PDA thrown in. So she always pushes back against any rules or 'no' and will die on the hill of arguing white is black - it's fucking exhausting but I'm trying not to let that cloud my judgement.

Rules:

• No phones upstairs/ in rooms (this is already in place, so no issue there)
• Phone off at 8.15pm (she's ok with this one too)
• No phone before or during breakfast (This is the one she's really pushing back against - but she already gets up as late as humanly possible to get to school and is a slow eater, and the phone is delaying things even more)
• No phones during dinner, even if we're not eating together (she doesn't like this one either)
• Put phone down completely when someone is talking to you
• If she is unable to have a sensible, civil, calm conversation about phone use then phone gets taken away until next morning (unless she's on the way to school, in which case it gets taken away once she's back from school)

She thinks we are the worst people in the world/ ruining her life/ have ruined her getting a smartphone/ etc. She refuses to accept that phones can in any way be an issue and she even said that the 'screentime' stats must be wrong when we told her this morning that she'd had an average of 2hrs screentime a day last week... DH thinks she is 'addicted' already, but I think she just struggles with rules she feels are unreasonable (to her) and it's in her nature to push back against every fucking boundary.

I think all of those sound absolutely fair especially the breakfast one, as I know how much screens can delay mornings!

Thank you @HTruffle - cos DD is very good at making me doubt whether I am or am not being unreasonable!

As an adult, I can use my phone whenever I like.

Why can't your daughter? "because she's a child / because I say so" won't cut it with an autistic child (just as it wouldn't with any adult).

I'm asking because there are obviously reasons, but you only explained your reasoning for the "no phones at breakfast". (would she be allowed to use the phone if she got up earlier? If not, then the reason you gave isn't valid - does she sense the reasons you give are fabrications/don't make sense? ).

I'm autistic. If you give me rules that don't make sense to me, I won't respect them. I'll do them, as that's how I was raised and I have very little fight in me by nature, but I'll think you're an idiot. Your daughter has fight in her - make the rules make sense to her. Ask her to explain why she disagrees and listen... If she argues that white is black, explain to her how white is not black. Don't just say "it isn't" or "because I say so".

And if she's actually right? Admit it.

For the record "screen time is bad" is unlikely to be taken as a good reason. It doesn't make sense on its own. You'll need to go into detail why it's bad (and then possibly have to explain why adults have lots of screen time, if it's apparently so bad).

None of the rules are unreasonable but I would say to pick your battles -does it really matter if she is looking at her phone if she is eating dinner on her own, for example?

Also think about the reason for a "rule". What is the reason there are no phones allowed before breakfast - surely the point is that she is ready in time for school? And if she is, does it matter if she has a quick catch up with messages from her friends? If she understands the "point" of a rule, can she come up with her own sensible alternative.

I'd also ask if the adults in the family also follow these rules. If you are not modelling desired behaviour, it's harder to enforce.

I would also remember that she may be using her phone for school linked activities. All screen time is not equal.

I think these are all bonkers rules for a near-teenager. Poor girl.

The only one that would make sense would be the no phone at breakfast if she's running late. The rest are just mean.

Imo they are harsh rules, why can't she have WhatsApp? How does she contact friends? Do you not trust her at all?

If dd is ready 15 mins before time to leave she can have her phone those last 15 mins..
Carrots work well in3 teenagers ime.
*currently onto teen number 10...

They are all fine imo.

The only thing I would say with this one Put phone down completely when someone is talking to you is just be careful you're not accidentally being rude yourself.

One of my DDs, politely, pointed out many years ago that DH and I would never expect our child's attention instantly if they were reading a book, watching tv or in the middle of something else yet we did instantly expect them to put their phone down. Dd spoke up after she was in the middle of replying to an upset friend and feeling, rightly, that she should be allowed to finish typing her message before giving us her full attention.

I would reconsider the dinner one when she's alone - there's no need for it then.

Especially if you don't follow that yourself.

I think you have to give and take at least a bit. It sounds like it's all "No No No".

It does all sound a bit stringent .. I agree with rules and boundaries re phone use but why can’t she look at her phone if she’s eating dinner alone? Your choice of course but that’s one I don’t understand. Also in the morning - DS (15) is often messaging about ‘have you done X homework’ / ‘oh god we’ve got Mr X / a fire drill/ PE this morning’ or talking about meeting up a bit early before school or after school’ etc. all stuff that is normal / important to them. Of course if it consistently makes them late then Introduce that rule but I think it’s healthy to let them see how they get on and start to learn to manage it themselves - and intervene more with some more stringent ones if things start to go pear shaped in any given area. As others have said - some of yours make sense to me (Ie no phones after X pm) but some of them seem a bit overbearing (DS 15, DD 18)

In answer to some Qs:

• she doesn't want Whatsapp or social media. I'd actually be fine with her having WA
• No phone before/ during breakfast as she was coming downstairs approx 15 mins before we need to leave the house and getting sucked into checking her Finch/ Duolingo, etc, and barely speaking to us. If she got up earlier she could potentially have loads of phone time before school! It's her choice, in theory, to get up really late and therefore not have time to check her Finch, etc, before she leaves for school...

But yes, I get the points and agree about being too harsh about dinner. I don't even know why I put that one in there really - just trying to stop her getting sucked into it at all times!

I think no phone when she's eating alone is a bit pointless.
You could use the phone time in the morning to get her ready earlier - if she's ready by 'x' time she can use her phone but I would also get her to put an alarm on the phone to tell her when it's time to leave.
I think the courtesy around the phone needs to go slightly both ways - if she's genuinely in the middle of something, you ask her to speak with you when she's finished.
As always reiterate that responsible and respectful phone use will earn more freedom in the future

What is wrong with WhatsApp ? My kids are adult now but I’d have thought that is how they communicate. I think the rules are a bit stringent and agree with a pp that the messaging in the morning is normal and should be fine , she just needs to speed it up a bit or get up a bit earlier .

Put phone down completely when someone is talking to you

So, she's in the middle of quietly scrolling something she's interested in or typing out a message to a friend, and you say, 'DD, remind me if you've got PE tomorrow. Do you need your kit?' and you expect her to stop and place her phone down just to say 'Yes, I've got PE after lunch but my stuff's already in my locker'?

Why? Why can't she just answer you while she's holding her phone? How would you like it if, every time you were concentrating on something, you had to put it down and stop completely when someone interrupted you?

Would you expect her to do the same with a book? Or if she was in the middle of drawing something? Or writing something with a pen? Or anything else she's quietly occupying her time with? If not, why does she have to do it with her phone?

No phones during dinner, even if we're not eating together

So if she's eating alone, she just has to sit there staring at the wall silently? Again, would you let her read a book while she was eating? Or listen to something? Or any other thing to make a solo meal less boring? Why is it a problem when it's a phone?

I don't really understand why she can't use Duolingo or message her mates or listen to music in the privacy of her own room, either. She's 12, not 5. She needs to be able to chill in privacy sometimes.

Fine to have some rules, but most of yours are arbitrary and draconian and I'm not surprised she's questioning them. A lot of them are illogical and pointless and overly regimented.

We have pretty similar rules and I don't think they are too harsh at all.

Especially the whatsapp rule. We have stuck to our guns and I'm glad we did. Whatsapp is from 13 anyway so she isn't allowed it. Why isn't this obvious to everyone? She is quite clearly showing she wouldn't be able to manage it anyway. Fingers crossed the age is changed to 16 soon

Do you follow all of those rules? Particularly the putting the phone down etc?

It sounds like your morning rule needs to be "you must be ready to leave for school at x time" and not be so rigidly linked to phone use and you can help her work out what this means in terms of logistics if need be.

Why does she have to talk to you in the morning? (I am not a morning conversationalist, and would hate to feel obliged to do so).

(My DS used to get up 15 minutes before leaving and multi task getting ready with being on his phone. As long as he was getting to school on time, I didn't interfere).

My son sounds very similar to your daughter. He is 11 and in year 7.

He is allowed YouTube, I know the sort of nonsense he watches, and it is harmless. He doesn't have WhatsApp. This is what upsets him the most. He can text his friends if he wants to, but I know exactly what will happen if he gets into group chats, especially where there will be people on there he doesn't know. He really struggles to understand the tone of text messages, and this has got him into trouble in the past. WhatsApp will be even worse.

• He can have his phone upstairs. We have a parentshield SIM card so I'll know what he's doing anyway.
• Phone is off at 8:30 during the week and 9:30 at weekends. He will just go on it when he should be sleeping otherwise.
• We have exactly the same problem at brekafast, I'll let him have it, but if he is taking too long, I will switch it off until he's ready.
• No phones during dinner - we definitely don't do this! DS will have a meltdown and refuse his dinner. I also like to look at my phone while I eat dinner, so I couldn't possibly say it's fine for me, but not for him. When I was a kid, I used to read at the dinner table unless we had guests round.
• Put the phone down completely when someone is talking to you. It depends who it is and what they're saying. I personally don't like people thinking that they can instantly demand my attention and I will stop what I'm doing to speak to them (I am ND myself), so I can't expect that of DS.
• If DD has PDA, then you're setting her up to fail with the final rule, and I think you may benefit from looking into PDA a bit more. The thing about PDA is that you need to change how you phrase things and pretty much get rid of everything you thought you knew about parenting and start again.

Sorry I forgot to say in my last post… how many teens use WhatsApp? It’s how I communicate with my friends but DC are 15 and 18 and say that I’m the only person they communicate with on WhatsApp. They are all on Snapchat and I have reluctantly gravitated over to that as it’s the only way my messages will be read! WhatsApp response time was about 3 days after I sent my message 😩

That aside OP… I think that you can have more currency / persuasion in these situations if you play it slightly differently. Afterall , effectively parenting teens these days (not saying I’m an expert but just instinctively and what has worked / not worked) is less strict rules and more getting the outcome that you want by thinking about what will work best for them and you so it feels like it’s a win for them - bending and flexing on certain things so they feel like they are getting some empathy / outcomes and understanding from you so will pave the way for you to be able to put your foot down about the things that you actually really care about.

I have 5 adult children and I think that parenting teens (or almost teens) is more of a negotiation than a laying down of rules. If there can be some give and take and conversations about why certain things are important, it builds trust. Remember your aim is to make independent individuals and at some point that means giving them some agency over their own behaviour and allowing them to make mistakes and learn from them - this is the hardest part of parenting as it goes against all our instincts to protect and guide them!

I'd have a rethink of 'the rules' and try and give way over the least important ones. For example, no phone in the bedrooms is a good rule to stick to and she seems ok with that. Maybe the breakfast rule could be relaxed so that if she gets everything else done, she can have her phone for a bit after breakfast? And I would relax the rule of having her phone if she's eating alone, but put phones away for family meals. There is wriggle room here for some negotiation.

One last thing. DD (now 18 and thankfully doing ok now) and I went through 4 years of hell (autistic/ ADHD/ PDA) and I suppose I was answering with her In mind as I really understand your plight. So I think the lower demand approach works well with them. She says now ‘ I understand that I have PDA so I have to learn that not every question/ request/ demand is a reason to say no’ . Honestly it has been so much easier now she understands herself better. I hope this comes in time for you too

@beasmithwentworth agree DD (16) is communicating with a boy at sixth form and the look she had when my mum asked if she has what’s app him! Because it is all on Snapchat or TikTok messaging

It is so tricky because it is a minefield to navigate and it isn’t something we had to deal with when we were teenagers

but like it or not it is here and as much as we want it to not be it is likely to stay (at least for 16+)

Thanks for your input. Written out I realise they seem draconian! We didn't put it like that to DD or even talk about 'rules' per se. We did talk about needing to have boundaries in place around phone use, which I think is reasonable - it's a new thing, it's shiny and alluring and she gets 'lost' in things very easily - so she could very easily spend hours and hours on it and think that only 10 minutes have passed. It's our job to help her with that, rather than letting her get sucked in.

I guess my real issue at the moment is that the two times I've tried to talk to her about phone use and boundaries, she's got explosive very very quickly.

I also get that we need a different approach re. her being PDA.

And the snapchat/ TikTok thing is moot. We're not stopping her from having those. She doesn't want them, isn't interested and, as far as I know, most of her friends don't have them either.

We were lucky in a way that she was the first seondary cohort after the 'smart phone free childhood' campaign, so many kids in her year started secondary with no phone or just a Brick. Of course, everyone's mileage varies and I'm sure there are kids in her year who do have those apps, but she's definitely not the only one who doesn't. And, as I said, she doesn't want them anyway.

She can have WhatsApp if she wants it, but she says she doesn't...