That these phone rules are reasonable for my DD?

[FlappicusSmith]

We've just given DD (12, yr8) a smart phone. She's had a Nokia brick since starting secondary, has been really responsible with it, etc. Smart phone is really locked down - only apps we approve, no social media, no WhatsApp, no YouTube. She basically just uses it for messaging, Finch, Duolingo, music, maps, etc.

However, since she got it, we've had two explosive (her) arguments around phone use. So, please tell me if you think this is reasonable or not? For info, she is (high-masking) autistic and adhd, probably with some PDA thrown in. So she always pushes back against any rules or 'no' and will die on the hill of arguing white is black - it's fucking exhausting but I'm trying not to let that cloud my judgement.

Rules:

• No phones upstairs/ in rooms (this is already in place, so no issue there)
• Phone off at 8.15pm (she's ok with this one too)
• No phone before or during breakfast (This is the one she's really pushing back against - but she already gets up as late as humanly possible to get to school and is a slow eater, and the phone is delaying things even more)
• No phones during dinner, even if we're not eating together (she doesn't like this one either)
• Put phone down completely when someone is talking to you
• If she is unable to have a sensible, civil, calm conversation about phone use then phone gets taken away until next morning (unless she's on the way to school, in which case it gets taken away once she's back from school)

She thinks we are the worst people in the world/ ruining her life/ have ruined her getting a smartphone/ etc. She refuses to accept that phones can in any way be an issue and she even said that the 'screentime' stats must be wrong when we told her this morning that she'd had an average of 2hrs screentime a day last week... DH thinks she is 'addicted' already, but I think she just struggles with rules she feels are unreasonable (to her) and it's in her nature to push back against every fucking boundary.

I guess my real issue at the moment is that the two times I've tried to talk to her about phone use and boundaries, she's got explosive very very quickly.

With all children, ND especially, I thinkt hese boundaries need to be clear upfront as otherwise, they think the rules are "changing".

I disagree that no social media or whatsapp or youtube is necessary. How is she messaging her friends? Becuase I doubt it's really just on imessage or whatever.

No phones upstairs/ in rooms (this is already in place, so no issue there) - fine that she's happy with this but I think it's a ridiculous rule myself for this age group.

• Phone off at 8.15pm (she's ok with this one too) - great, athough this i sone that I wouldn't be pushing. Not least because I insist on homework, chores etc BEFORE devices which means its often at this time they're chatting to friends, watching youtube etc.

• No phone before or during breakfast - yes, I gett his. I tell DS that he can't use his phone if he's late. If he's on time, sure, he can do what he likes.

• No phones during dinner, even if we're not eating together (she doesn't like this one either) - if you're not eating together I'd let that one go. But yy to when eating together.
• Put phone down completely when someone is talking to you - sure, that' sbest. But it's not about the phone, it's about overall politeness and good manners that means you pay attention to the person you're talking with.

• If she is unable to have a sensible, civil, calm conversation about phone use then phone gets taken away until next morning (unless she's on the way to school, in which case it gets taken away once she's back from school) - I see where you're going with this but I think this will just inflame the situation.

I agree. Children will be using technology their whole lives. In my opinion it is better to teach them from day one to use it responsibly rather than making it something “forbidden”. I know people whose parents never let them drink alcohol who became binge drinkers at uni, people who had restricted sugar and fat intake who when allowed access to food unfettered ate appallingly - just two examples but they hopefully illustrate my point. Banning usually doesn’t work in my experience. Far better to teach responsible use/consumption. Some of my DC’s friends have Nokia bricks the unintended consequence is they cannot discuss sensibly things teens are interested in such as Tik Tok trends, they miss out on WhatsApp group chats so don’t know what is going on in school the next day etc they are slowly becoming less and less engaged with their peers as cannot relate to them. Safe and sensible usage is a better way forward in my mind than severe restrictions that just set up the child later for a phone addiction and irresponsible use.

Yes I know what you mean about boundaries @NewCushions - I wish we'd had rules in place re. devices before breakfast before she got the phone. The problem is she rolls downstairs at 8.27, then spends 5-10 minutes checking her phone before she even eats anything and we need to leave the house at 8.40, which almost always ends up being later. Mornings are a long-standing issue and we already go massively out of our way to make them easier for her (as is right, because they are hard for her and she needs extra scaffolding and support due to her ND), but the phone is making it harder.

I also do feel that we need to be able to talk sensibly about what is and isn't working and why, but she just goes ballistic almost as soon as we mention phone use. I get that she's anxious about it as it's new as she's probably deep down worried we'll take it away permanently (which we wouldn't). But if I can't talk to her calmly about it without her shouting me down then I don't see how we can proceed! She has properly screamed at me twice in 48 hours, told me she hates me, I'm ruining her life, that she's tempted to run away from home, etc.

No phones in bedrooms - we're not utterly draconian about this. If there's a reason for her to have it in there then we're usually ok with it. But neither DH nor I have our phone in our bedroom. There's plenty of space downstairs for people to use devices privately/ in peace.

ok, but how do you 'teach' responsible use without some boundaries @Muddywelliescleansocks ? If I didn't support her she would just get completley lost in it - she has no sense of time when she's in 'hyperfocus' and obviously phones/ devices make that even harder.

And we haven't 'banned' anything, I don't think?

I just want to have sensible calm conversations around usage!

I totally get you on the morning issue. DS (ADHD) has similar with his mornings. Weirdly, we've slowly but surely got things improved but I can't quite pin point what helped. Maybe it's small cumulative stuff? A big one is, admittedly, him realising that he didn't want to always be late for school so that self motivation has helped.

Accepting that it takes him longer to get moving, I started waking him up earlier so I had more time to go in and chase him up more times!

Obviously clothes and books etc all ready night before. He does this himself now, but we did it for him for a long time.

Ditto, I still make breakfast for him quite often. Not every day, so he sort of sees it as a treat, but it helps keep things moving: "your eggs are getting cold".

The phone thing was perhaps there but less punitive? I do remember saying to him over and over again -if you're on your phone before school, you will be late. or "you're late becuase you've been on your phone". And eventually it just sort of sunk in for him?

Sorry, not that helpful probably except maybe to giv eyou home? he's nearly 15....

@FlappicusSmith what is your usage like?

Maybe change the breakfast an to being able to use once she's actually ready to step out the door and not arguing when it's time to go

Either she will run out of time to use it or get ready earlier so she can

It sounds like there are some rules that are about her wellbeing (no phones upstairs after x time), some that aim to prevent the phone interfering with life (no phone at breakfast) and some that are about teaching good phone etiquette (put it down when people are talking to you). I am in favour of all of these and I think it might help your dd if you articulate the differences between them. She would then understand that the one about breakfast is flexible if she gets up early enough, but the one about phones in rooms isn’t. ‘Phone etiquette’ would also be useful to discuss and agree as a family.

They sound like completely normal rules nothing too crazy if she can't stick to the rules she loses the phone

I have a now young adult with AuDHD.

we have two types of meals.

type 1: social. No phones or books and conversation is expected.

type 2: anti-social. No conversation is expected and anyone can read their book or use their phone. No sound from phones.

worth considering?

I like the way you've put it in those three categories...

@Octavia64 we pretty much have that too. Social meals (at the dinner table) - no books, devices, etc. Other meals (at the island, when people are eating as and when) - we've not had any rules about reading, etc. Everyone can just do their own thing

@Tiswa my use is ok, I think. I do check my phone before breakfast (to check for messages from school, etc) and it's true that I do look at it when I'm eating breakfast and lunch if we're not having a family meal. But then I'm not making my parents working day start late becuase I'm not ready to leave for school until 8.50! (We give her a lift - that is another story...). I use my phone a lot in the kitchen because I use it for recipes. I don't have it on me when we're watching TV as a family, etc. I never have it in my bedroom. So - I could definitely use it less, but I'm not too bad I don't think?

That's all cohort dependent tbh.

My elder three are only a spread of 4 years and the middle one used Snapchat, but the other two used WhatsApp.

At the last school i worked in WhatsApp was the app of choice, yet DH's nephew (16) looks at you like you've got two heads if you mention WhatsApp as it's for "oldies" and "obviously" everyone uses Telegram...

But @FlappicusSmith a ND child is certainly not going to see the fact that it is because she is running late and sees you on it at breakfast and lunch

the hardest things with phones modelling the behaviour we expect - the argument we are adults doesn’t hold true really does it because it is a problem of usage across the board

From everything you've said, I'm not sure she was ready for a smart phone and you should have probably stuck with the old phone for another year or two.

Its so difficult to navigate the line of wanting to protect your children and not wanting them to feel excluded from their peers. If only all parents were on the same page, in an ideal world smartphones and social media would all be 16+ and parents would adhere. Hoping the laws change around this before we get to this stage with my own kids and there's more parental responsibility on the matter.

Yup, I agree - I wish we'd continued to wait. The original plan was no smart phone until she was 14, but she's been petitioning for ages. Mostly cos Bricks don't have emojis and she can't take decent photos or have music on it. All things that matter to her. But yes...