Newly trained doctors-you need to know this

[2020Raquet]

DSS3 is about to be a newly qualified FY2 doctor along without about 8,000 from his cohort (number who qualified this year). There are about 1000 jobs for them to apply for in the NHS this year. So we, the tax payer have paid an average of £250,000 to £327,009 to train these doctors over the past 7-9 years and 87% will not have a job.

A simple google search (appreciate that not be the most accurate, so happy to be corrected if based on facts) show that 20,060 doctors immigrated to the U.K. in 2024.

DSS3 is emigrating because he has little other choice.

The doctors strikes are not based on money, but the fact that they come out of uni with £100’s of £1,000’s of debt in a job apparently vital in the U.K., but with no job prospects!!

AIBU to believe the system has failed.

Hi. I’m an f2 and whilst there is a huge problem with training posts, your numbers are very wrong. If you look at the competition ratios here medical.hee.nhs.uk/medical-training-recruitment/medical-specialty-training/competition-ratios/2024-competition-ratios

… there were 4600 posts in gp alone? Also the competition ratios are slightly misleading as people apply for lots of specialities not just one. These are to enter the first year and represent the training contracts. There are also lots of ‘trust grade’ jobs at every hospital, where you aren’t in training but you are employed for a year. And lots of clinical fellow jobs, especially in a&e. So 87% is a huge mis representation of the number. There are jobs, but in general yes entering training is a problem.

We can, it’s called having borders. Work visas can be issued or not.

Is there any reason why you feel so comfortable using a racist term against white people?

I imagine you’d have a different view about use of a perjorative racist term against any other group?

@2020Raquet So we, the tax payer have paid an average of £250,000 to £327,009 to train these doctors over the past 7-9 years and 87% will not have a job.

This has likely been pointed out by other people, but just one point to add for consideration:

A not-insignificant minority of students in medical degrees are from overseas. So they come to the UK, obtain their degree, and then a large number of them will be leaving again.

I come into contacts with lots of carers many are from abroad. The one who all the patients and families sing his praises about the most is an African caring tidy dedicated hard working. Yup there are some crap ones out there but I also regularly visit care homes trust me I see at best sub standard care being delivered by local white people.
Do not generalise to suit your agenda. Caring is a shit job most are poorly paid work ridiculous hours often in very trying circumstances it’s emotionally and physically draining. The companies they work for regularly guilt trip them into working overtime paid at normal rates a 60-70 hour is common anyone who does it well regardless of background is nothing short of a saint and those saints come from many different parts of the world. Many carers come from parts of the world where elderly are shown a significantly higher degree of respect than that which the UK population show particularly on here. My dad (who was difficult to say the least) carer from India called him “Sir” and was exceedingly deferential and caring.
Most HCPs have worked with nurses from the Philippines virtually to a man/women they are hard working and very knowledgeable putting UK trained nurses to shame.
I’ve worked with African Chinese Indian Iranian doctors I could go so many are hard working knowledgeable and dedicated and most importantly caring many lack the arrogance still seen in some white British doctors. I’ve seen them pushing trolleys washing patients making then a cup of tea helping them into the commode.
Im not denying that there will be some rubbish ones out there but there are rubbish British doctors/nurses/physios/radiographers etc. The NHS is the fifth biggest employer in the world the biggest employer in Europe and the biggest employer of women in the world you cannot employ that many people and not have a variety of people with a variety of abilities. If people are not good at their job whatever their background then they need help and training to get better few are deliberately bad.

Most of us are trying our very best in a virtually impossible situation. It seems now that few have a good work for us this is exceedingly demoralising when so many of us go the extra mile every day.
As one doctor said during the covid epidemic “will you still clap for us when this is over?

Zero sympathy. The majority said immigration wasn’t an issue. Until, it has affected them.

The NHS needs a massive revamp.
Its just not working.

I know dentists tend to go private because the earnings are massively different and it’s why we can’t get many NHS dentists.

I assumed healthcare was the same.
Why is it so difficult to get a gp appointment or takes 9 hours to be seen in A&E if we are overrun with doctors?
I thought the issue was not enough staff compared to patients.

I think the availability of trust grade jobs is very variable. Where I work they’ve been cut due to hiring freezes.

The doctors strikes are not based on money... It is clearly one of the key strands given every time you see a BMA rep on the TV they mention it. The shortage is another, and I have more sympathy with that.

"In brief, it's about pay rises - the BMA is arguing that resident doctors - previously known as junior doctors - need a 26% pay uplift to restore their earnings, once inflation is taken into account." https://news.sky.com/story/why-doctors-are-on-strike-again-from-today-and-why-the-health-secretary-is-so-angry-about-it-13470026 14/11/25

*We have been clear that, following a 28.9% pay rise across three years for resident doctors, we cannot go further on pay this year." https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2025/10/23/resident-doctor-strikes-everything-you-need-to-know/#:~:text=We%20have%20been%20clear%20that,roles%20to%20progress%20their%20careers. 23/10/25

I’m not invalidating anyone’s experience I’m detailing my very extensive experience which is equally valid.
it’s lazy and easy to generalise all overseas staff can’t speak English they are not as caring they are not a knowledgeable well trained etc. All white British staff are amazing caring outstanding communication skills dedicated and knowledgeable. This is not the case you get the good the bad and the ugly from ALL backgrounds nationalities.

Yeah. But don't worry, time machines will be along, any moment now.

I think the real test is to check to see what Labour were saying about Tory policies, while Labour were in opposition.

Here is a sample from 2019 I randomly picked from the web.

Labour pledges extra funding in NHS ‘rescue plan’ | HFMA

Note this line here : The Conservatives have pledged to recruit an extra 6,000 GPs, but there are no details on the party’s planned funding for public health and training yet. "

So just in 2019, the Tories had no plans to fund training, but had promised another 6k GPs.

Where would these 6k GPs come from, if the government of the day had no plan to fund training?

It is true, and it is bloody awful. Don’t forget those already in gap year after completing F2, who will also apply this year . Those responsible for medical training have badly fucked up, or it’s being done deliberately.

We have a low ratio of Doctors to patients. Like everything else in the NHS is comes down to one thing money. The NHS was underfunded between 2009 and Boris Johnson become PM we have an expensive and aging population we are able to prolong life although not necessarily improve quality of life people have high expectations, the lack of social care is crippling the NHS (different government funding).
Contrary to what many believe according to the King’s Fund, the highly respected independent charity, the NHS is not over overrun with expensive managers bleeding it financially dry it’s underfunded across the board and the elephant in the room that no government of any persuasion want to address is social care and who funds it.

We don’t need to criticise doctors from other countries. I certainly wouldn’t. We need to employ those doctors who have passed their medical training, at huge expense both to themselves and to the government.

I can only assume you have name changed from the other offensive race baiting threads that have run recently.
Your facts are completely wrong -12473 training jobs this year and many more non training jobs where you still get trained and learn.

This is race baiting and shall we wait for the physician assistant moan to start.

Competition is tough and always has been in medicien but the BMA did their own surbey and 40& of those residents surveyed did not bother to apply - in the words of the lottery - you do have to be in it to win it - if you did not apply you can not claim a foreign doctor took your post and it is unfair.

The strikes are tone deaf - strike for better training and a reduction in the exorbitant student loan interest rate for all students - then that would be sensible but demand a 25% pay rise as your head line then you are missing the point. REsident doctors are not paus 15 GBP per hour when they doa 44 hr week and get apid from 40-95K per annum.

I go for regular eye screening/treatment (diabetic) and not one of the Doctors in the department are English born, nor have a very good command of the English language. I've worked out that there is always a nurse present or HCA purely to translate for you. And there are many times when I've struggled to understand the information I'm being given.... usually at rapid speed. I hate to imagine how elderly patients manage.

Yet again, I didn’t generalise ‘all’. We would all make more progress in this conversation if we didn’t have regular accusations of saying things that aren’t being said. Sometimes that tactic is used to deflect from the issues.

Is anyone generalising that all overseas staff can’t speak good enough English, or are they saying that some don’t.

Do you disagree that some don’t?

Fair point. I apologize.

I should learn to be more inclusive and understanding. More accepting of the entire realm of diversity. I should not single any group out and potentially demonize them by using not nice words.

Sorry.

It's a crazy situation. I struggle to think how anyone could think that it is a good thing to train many thousands of doctors in the UK at taxpayer's expense for many of them to then leave and work abroad for years, possibly permanently. Meanwhile, the UK steal the medical professionals from other, poorer countries.
I guess, the UK gov. like it because it keeps the wages down. However, I think thngs have got to the point where people are becoming far more vocal in their complaints on this and many, many other matters.

Wrt the point about foreign doctors not speaking good English, it's not racist to say that this is true in some circumstances. Some foreigners speak far better English than British educated people, others simply don't have good enough English, communication skills or bedside manner to be able to explain complex health issues well to patients.

It would be head for anyone with extensive experience of working in the NHS to disagree with this statement.

Hard, not head!

Which bit?

A thousand times this. An elderly relative is currently in hospital and while most of the doctors are either British have a good standard of English, I cannot say the same for the other staff on the ward. My relative doesn't have any problems with her speech or hearing but I frequently have to intervene because either she can't understand the member of staff or the person has misunderstood what she has said to them.

I can honestly say that in the last five or so years maybe longer time flies when your having fun I rarely if ever come into contact with any HCPs who can’t speak “good English”. I definitely have in the past but not now. Maybe I’m in a minority maybe it’s where I live but I do meet a lots of HCPs from abroad but I simply don’t see poor language skills anymore.
I do see HCPs from abroad who lack knowledge and skills but I also see this from HCPs who trained in the UK.