Newly trained doctors-you need to know this

[2020Raquet]

DSS3 is about to be a newly qualified FY2 doctor along without about 8,000 from his cohort (number who qualified this year). There are about 1000 jobs for them to apply for in the NHS this year. So we, the tax payer have paid an average of £250,000 to £327,009 to train these doctors over the past 7-9 years and 87% will not have a job.

A simple google search (appreciate that not be the most accurate, so happy to be corrected if based on facts) show that 20,060 doctors immigrated to the U.K. in 2024.

DSS3 is emigrating because he has little other choice.

The doctors strikes are not based on money, but the fact that they come out of uni with £100’s of £1,000’s of debt in a job apparently vital in the U.K., but with no job prospects!!

AIBU to believe the system has failed.

I first heard about this earlier this year from a dismayed mum on here reporting exactly the same thing about her own daughter, and I’ve been talking about it ever since, it’s so bloody shocking.

She said the problem started a few years ago when there was apparently a massive shortage of doctors. So the government relaxed the rules on overseas doctors working here, but this has meant that a lot of them are older and much more experienced than the graduates, so they are snapping up a lot of the jobs.

She said it had got so bad that her daughter and colleagues would often finish a training shift to find that multiple jobs had been advertised and closed, due to the huge interest, just while they were on their shift.

Her DD and her cohort all owed about £100,000 in student loans. It’s like a horrible dystopian sci-Fi..

Oh ok so if it’s not happening in London which is one of the most desirable places many would want to emigrate to and teaching hospitals to boot or in differing sectors to those you have experience of its not happening anywhere.

Not nice to use a pejorative term.

I don't doubt that many overseas doctors are supremely talented. I've had nothing but good experiences with them (the nurses rather less so though). I just don't know why we bother training our own doctors at all if we're going to import nearly all of them.

Sorry, I don't think that I was clear. The doctors applying from overseas may be much further along in their career (may have publications, passed all the postgraduate exams - by the end of F2, due to time restrictions, it's not possible to complete all specialist exams - have direct experience in a specialty, may be able to do more procedures ) than the UK doctors finishing F2, but are competing for the same training posts. Unsurprisingly this has pushed up the cut-off score for shortlisting.

i guess they may say the same in africa/asia, why do we train the medics

No, because a lot of those fully trained overseas doctors aren’t coming in at the level they’re working at - they’re coming in at early training posts, so there is a contribution to UK grads not being able to get jobs.

For example, I’m a doctor in training. One of my colleagues is a consultant in his home country. He’s part of international research groups. He’s absolutely amazing. But he didn’t have the UK exams when he started so he came in via the general training scheme. He got his exams the first sittings he was eligible for. He’s on our consultant rota. Even so he can’t formally become a consultant until he completes training so he’ll be a registrar and using a training number until 2027. This is just a waste of everyone’s time.

How is your average UK medical graduate coming straight out of FY2 going to compete with somebody like that at interview? At interview he wasn’t competing against UK consultants, he was competing against doctors who have only just finished FY1 (as you apply in the Autumn of your FY2).

It would be much fairer if for all trainee posts you had to have two years of NHS experience equivocal to the foundation programme UK grads have to do.

Whilst there is the obvious solution to increase training posts, medical training is in such a state - who’s going to train them? Every resident I know, regardless of specialty, has had problems getting the bare minimum of training opportunities (clinics, theatre lists etc) because the rota’s are stretched so thinly that they’re being pulled to the wards, on calls etc.

Perhaps the solution is a foundation like programme for overseas medics that’s mandatory to complete ahead of entry for a UK training programme. This would help IMGs acclimatise to the NHS and hopefully increase ward cover enough that those in training might actually get to do some training.

I’m aware of how it works, it’s my job. You know full well that most international doctors come in at reg or above, so it’s very interesting that you are trying to both claim you are a consultant and that this isn’t the case. The key to what you’ve said is “as more qualified” - why would we not want doctors that are more qualified? What possible agenda could you have, I wonder..,.,.

The issue isn’t skin colour or whether they are doing their jobs properly - as a poster upthread pointed out, if their English language skills are poor, it’s a safeguarding issue. If they are trained abroad there may be an issue with qualifications or training standards. Why would you think that racist ? We need to be having these conversations without people shouting ‘racist’ and trying to shut down perfectly reasonable discussion.

Can you point out what ‘racism’ you have seen so far on this thread? Unless requiring all doctors to have genuine qualifications, a good standard of English and caring for patients is racist?

This seems to be partly why we are in this horrendous mess - the minute anyone tries to talk about it, someone pops up and tells ‘racist’ and tries to shut the conversation down.

I've worked in the part of tnr NHS that employs FY docs onto their ST (specialist training) programmes. Our contract was not for the whole of England (nevermind the UK) and we alone recruited 3000 docs each year so I'm not sure where the figure of 1000 vacancies came from? Also some of the 20,000 docs emigrating from to the UK no doubt will be consultants so not competing for training prgramme places. I dont disagree that it needs changing but I do think the numbers you've quoted aren't accurate.

The system has failed and it is failing in numerous things not only that one you mention, and not only in the UK.
We just know the ones that affect us but there is over spending and non sense in every aspect of society/system.
YANBU.

Both cockwomble racist Rupert Lowe and others on here have picked out Nigeria as a target - Nigeria is literally an English speaking country. 🙄

being ‘black’ or ‘Asian’ isn’t an issue if they are British and trained here. It’s an issue if they have trained overseas as not all nations have the same standards as we do, and of course language can be a problem, both written and spoken. Recruiting from overseas should be a last resort and should only be done when absolutely necessary where the vacancy cannot be filled by a suitably qualified indigenous person, it’s also ethically questionable as we are poaching qualified doctors and nurses from countries where those staff are needed. Needs top to bottom reform. I like to think Wes Streeting has this on his agenda and is able to change the current system and make it fairer for UK qualified medical staff who should be prioritised.

When I read your title:
”Newly trained doctors-you need to know this”

What sprang to mind was:
The only thing a newly trained doctor needs to know is the website address of an emigration agency.

But if an overseas doctor has a poor standard of English it comes from a country where there is widespread corruption (potentially for faking qualifications), social disdain for many disabilities and homophobia, are they really ‘more qualified’? It’s not just about the certificates.

I did mention in my post what the real issue with Dr training is.

And I made no mention t gammon demographics. So I can't see where , quote: " (nice bit of ageism and classism there, btw)", comes from.

What communication problem am I ignoring. I have not mentioned anything about communication, anywhere on this thread. So I have no idea where accusations of me being "ableist and ageist" is coming from.

I do however admit I am a bit " gammonist", if there is such a word.

Actually, it's during their training years that they have to move to a different hospital each year within the deanery. That is irrespective of where they live, whether they are married or not and living in their own house or whether they have children or not.

Emigrate and never pay back the loans.

Simple.

Enough will.

I think for most of us it’s a where you trained issue rather than where you came from. I’d prioritise a person from Tripoli for example who went to a UK medical school and has completed the UK foundation period vs a person from Birmingham who went to medical school and did their FY1 equivalent in Plovdiv.

presumably communication skills are considered during the interview process

When I was younger I was working as a research scientist on a series of 3 year contracts and looking for a permanent post. There were really good permanent posts available in France, but only French people were allowed to apply for them. I was blocked from applying, because I was a UK citizen. This is when the UK and France were both in the Schengen agreement on freedom of movement.

I wondered then why the UK was not allowed to reserve some posts for young UK scientists to progress in the UK.

I had to leave science because the government preferred to take scientists from overseas, even if their English was poor and they had no plan to stay.

I get that there may be reasons for this in science, but I don't see the reasons in Medicine. If France can make protected posts for their own citizens, why can't the UK do this?

I do think that having excellent native English and an understanding of British culture is important in medicine, and it makes sense to select candidates on this criterion.

Is it just because our government decided not to?

Nobody said ‘all’ though. But you seem to be invalidating people’s actual reported experiences with poor English standards in foreign nurses and doctors which in a high stress situation, just make everything worse.

Are you suggesting they are lying? Attitudes like this are part of the problem - people jumping straight to ‘it’s offensive’ ti even raise the topic.

I’ve recently had treatment with a foreign consultant and while he was very pleasant, I struggled to understand his strong accent and that made it so much harder to understand the large amounts of information he was rapidly telling me about my complex medical situation.

Surely if you are an experienced medical professional you would understand the importance of clear communication for patients?

Some specialties don’t even interview anymore. It’s done on a combination of written application and generic online multiple choice exam.

Why do you feel it acceptable to use a racist term?