Can we all take a moment to pray for Thea, living life on the brink of poverty at £6k a month (£3.2k of which is UC).

[BananaramaDefence]

In a good month when UC gives full entitlement, Thea has a total of £6,142.00, from £2,800 in take-home pay and £3,342 in universal credit plus child benefit. Her monthly expenses such as childcare, rent, council tax, energy and food etc are usually around £6000. She says: "So it’s living very much on the edge."

And now the cap is removed she will get more!!

From this: Pregnant mum-of-four: 'Budget benefit change saved our Christmas' - The Mirror https://share.google/QGbNeuIKPAmg1qNG5

No wonder people get pissed of with welfare in this country. I work 40 hours plus a week, have children, have to pay a mortgage, childcare and I earn way less than this!!!

No child should live in poverty but at the same time no family should get this muxh in benefits.

Before people say, yes but it's to pay rent and collate, I also have to pay all that and my mortgage is half my wage!!

As I said, being ill mannered is generational too normally. Feckless parents is my guess. Sorry you’re so unhappy with your lot.

Again, if manners are so important, where are all your pleases and thank yous?
Please and thanks 🙏

Pay wall.

I have told you to define anything.

Ok. Please will you explain what you mean by "suffering" in the context of the present day UK and our use of relative poverty as the metric. Thanks.

No. Many people have explained it to you but no one will change your mindset.

Here’s a definition of suffering for you @Christmascarrotjumper
Child who is hungry
Child with thin shoes whose toes are numb waiting for the school bus
Child who watches their mum crying because she can’t put the heating on.

My daughter is watching Oliver Twist this morning. The classic version. For some reason it brought this thread to mind. Maybe we could bring back the poorhouses and pop all the kids born after a second child, in there? Would that be cheaper?

So just to summarise…..The children of inconsiderate feckless parents who pop out offspring Willy Nilly and (shock) OUT OF WEDLOCK shouldn’t be helped and mustn’t be helped because it costs society too much money? Have I got that right?

Ok. So you can't. Thanks anyway

What would you define as poverty?

Can't possibly answer as you didn't say please.

Again, I didn't tell you do something like you did to me, I asked. But if you can't answer, that's ok.

Welfare used to be about people being in need and somewhere along the line it shited to what people are 'entitled' to.

You are only entitled if the government deem you need it.

Patently untrue.

Universal credit in the example given here, does she really 'need' over 3k a month paid by the taxpayer?

And all the benefits which are not means tested. They're by definition not based on 'need'.

My Dad receives the winter fuel allowance because he's entitled to it. He owns his home and has 100k in savings. My Mum doesn't get it as she's still working at 69 because she needs to work to pay her mortgage and has no savings.

My Mum actually 'needs' the winter fuel allowance more than my Dad but my Dad gets it because he is 'entitled' to it and my Mum isn't.

That’s one reason I would rebadge the ‘entitled to’ site - strictly speaking it’s accurate but I do think gives off the wrong vibe -

Well I’m not right wing, centre left voter, but yep I actually feel that way too - I had 2 terminations in my 30s due to accidental pregnancies whilst on contraception due to poor circumstances at the time- 2nd time I was with the guy I am married to and have been for years, but had only known each other 7 weeks at that point - I didn’t just think yippee that will get me a flat and a nice amount of social too plus maybe maintenance - I’m not talking about women in long term settled relationships find themselves left or widowed - I’m talking about people who know they don’t have the resources going ahead willy nilly and in some cases using kids as ATMs .

Here’s a definition of suffering for you *
Child who is hungry
Child with thin shoes whose toes are numb waiting for the school bus
Child who watches their mum crying because she can’t put the heating on.*

So a fantasy version of "poverty" that only exists in the UK if the child is suffering from neglect, which giving a chaotic adult more money will do nothing to alleviate.

Agreed.

I've seen several threads on MN with posters talking about whether they should feel guilty about claiming so much in benefits or the fact they're able to save so much while claiming and while a lot of replies will say 'that is a lot of money' you'll get equal replies saying 'don't feel guilty, you're 'entitled' to it.

Which to me, isn't what the welfare state was supposed to be for. It was supposed to be for need not entitlement.

Wow that's a horrifying contrast

And yes, I know wealthy pensioners who get the WFA but would spend more than that amount on a meal out

No - because it's not just about money.
Women who have a lot of children are often the ones with the least skills to educate them, feed them correctly or give them a routine so that they can be successful in school etc. You center the woman each time instead of the children. Women who have more children than they can cope with - especially if the father is absent or has little or no involvement in childcare - are far more likely to physically assault their children because they cannot cope. Poor children from large families are also more likely to end up in prison if they are male and replicating their mother's behaviors if they are female. They are also more likely to end up in care, be targeted by predatory males and by drug dealers. Throwing money at young women with few options in life is not the solution. Contraception needs to be discussed by doctors and nurses when young women keep getting pregnant and men who father children they refuse to support should be offered a vasectomy.

Responsibility is the other side of "entitlement" which seems to have completely disappeared.

Bringing children into the world that you are unable to look after in any real sense is unbelievably selfish and cruel, as well as irresponsible.

Exactly. Even my Dad who thinks he's entitled to every penny he gets from the government and isn't my Mums biggest fan lol thinks it's unfair.

So I'm always annoyed by 'entitled' when it comes to benefits.

Responsibility is the other side of "entitlement" which seems to have completely disappeared.

This is what really frustrates me

And stuck in the middle of all are people working tirelessly and limiting their family sizes and often doing hugely responsible jobs but never feeling any benefit from the stress and long hours because the reality is we live in an inheritocracy.

It's no wonder we have a productivity crisis.

Why is that a fantasy version of poverty? Do you not believe that some parents don’t have enough money to provide basics? do you think they’re just choosing to neglect their kids instead? So not to feed or clothe their kids adequately because they want to? Keep the heating off because they’d rather? I’m really confused?

I think the welfare provision in the UK was already generous before lifting the two child cap, yes. 1% of the world's population but 7% of the welfare spending.

Or maybe they felt abortion was a wholly impossible option for them as they couldn’t live with themselves if they had a termination and ended the life of a baby growing inside them?