I got fired today!!

[Amiunemployable]

I started a new job on 1st September.

I was given an offer of employment letter when I started but never received a contract.

Today I was fired. Apparently I've had too much time off and failed my probation.

They've said I've had eleven days off. By my tally it's six days. Not eleven. Two were caused by migraines with aura which I've never had before and my GP reckons it was highly likely to have been caused by my office lighting as the migraines only started after I got the job. And since i stopped using the overhead office lights, (i sourced my own alternative) I've been migraine free.

I know it's still a high amount to have had off but I recieved PIP for a disability that does unfortunately mean it's difficult for me sometimes to get to work. But I've done my best.

Have I got a leg to stand on here? I never received a contract. Was never informed of a probation period. To then be told I'd failed a probation period that I didn't know existed? I signed nothing that mentioned probation.

I wasn't offered an extension to the probation period or a improvement plan, etc. Just straight dismissal, with no prior warning, for failing a probation period I didn't know existed. And also told I've had 11 days off and I don't think it's been that many.

I'm sorry OP
I have been in my new role since July and I fear I have had more time off than you.
Some of it has been related to me having a break down after losing a parent.
Others have been related to needing to be at home with sick children (unpaid leave and sick leave is lumped together in my work)

I did consider going pt to not affect the business anymore but I know I'm holding on by the skin of my teeth. Its just shit circumstances for me at the moment and hope my work will be understanding when my probation is up for review in a month or so

Better than the Tory arseholes who employment rights away and made it two years before you get any rights. Six months would be a huge improvement for employees.

OP, talk to CAB and make sure you are getting all the benefits you are entitled to for now. Could you pick up some seasonal work still? Onwards and upwards, consider it a lucky escape from this disorganised employer.

I know, it was the fact it was 3 separate incidents. The best of it is it was a council role and I’d worked in the council for 3 years in a different position and transferred over. My holiday entitlement was transferred so really my employment status should have too. I hated the job though and didn’t want to be there so I didn’t fight it.

I've got an employee who's been with me less than two years. Her mum is in really poor health quite suddenly. She's struggled into work everyday, until I told her to go and WFH for a week, and if she didn't get much work done, so be it, I wanted her to take it easy and not run herself down. Her initial response was that she could perhaps take it as holiday. And she could have, but that would mean she'd have to work the days over Christmas instead as she had insufficient holiday left. It's things like that, where she's looking to cause as little disruption as possible that stand out. She's an excellent worker. Stays late because she truly cares (I run a charity), funny and boosts team morale, a real team player. If she needs a month of, I'll give it to her, because I know she needs it, because she hates not doing her job properly, and has pride in her work.

Then I had this other one. Three kids. Had her MIL and brother (both not working, one on full PIP) living with her and her husband, so always someone at home who could have looked after her kids. First week, she was sick by the Thursday. Fine, you can't help that and hopefully no one is that thick that they'd risk faking a sicky on day 4 of their new job. The next week, one kid was sick for 2 days, and she "couldn't" leave him with MIL or brother and decided she'd not come in for those. Then the oldest kid she wanted assessed for something or other and announced she couldn't make it in the following Friday as the kid had a doctor's appointment. Then she discovered that (due to the nature of my business we have many vulnerable and elderly) my policy was anyone who had COVID needed to WFH until they tested negative, and the day after this policy was made known to her, lo and behold, she's got COVID and needs to WFH. In her 6 months of probation, she had over 3 weeks off and that's not including any weekend time. And the thing about probation is that you pass it, fail it, or are told what you need to improve over a designated extension of probation and then at the end of that, you pass or fail. Fucking right she failed her probation. And wouldn't you know it, she was then trying to concoct some bullshit to go to ACAS with for anything her workshy lazy ass could grab. Unfortunately in trying to do that, she unknowingly fucked up and enabled me to write her a letter stating (in professional and diplomatic terms) that I invited her to shoot her fraudulent shot, and it would guarantee me reporting her for the regulations she had breached. She then turned up at my office and turned on the waterworks, as if that's the adult solution to anything when you know you've been caught. It then transpired that she had a claim against a company for "falling down a pothole in the carpark" and another "have you been in a car accident that wasn't your fault" claim. Oh, and she'd had extensive time off at her previous employer for "stress".

I think she knew she was a piss taker, but her mentality was to expect to get paid for not working and then would just go for a claim when she inevitably got sacked. Not her fault, she was the real victim here and just doing what the system allowed. Everyone else does it, she was just getting what she was "owed". If you pointed any of the above and the poor unethical attitude? Oh she'd gasp in faux naive offence, how dare you pick on poor her for her stress and ill children.

Like OP, this behaviour is a pattern. And it's pretty obvious when you've got one of those workers. People aren't stupid, and employers can recognise people who use any opportunity not to turn up Vs those who genuinely can't come to work that day.

Because you are saying you have been unwell for 4 days. Most minor illnesses would only need a couple of days off, it's very unusual for a migraine to last from friday to monday for example, and not just friday-saturday.

You haven't declared your disability so they haven't discriminated against you om the basis of your disability (because they aren't even aware of it).

You have had excessive time off and indeed the details you have posted above show that the time off is nothing to do with your disability in any event.

You have been employed less than 2 years. Even when the new ERA comes in they would be able to fire you during this initial period by giving notice.

I am afraid chalk this one up to experience and look for something else.

My old employer used to do this. I think there was a theory that Friday and Monday sick leave was more likely to be an attempt at getting a long weekend without taking holiday than genuine illness. Making it 4 days sick leave would weed this out. There had been a member of staff who always took sick leave after his football team had an away fixture on the weekend for instance (he did left the company in the end).

It was pointed out to the company that it could also be the case that some people struggled on not feeling well until Friday before accepting defeat and going off sick to minimise disruption to the company and were penalised effectively for trying to do this. Again this may have been an attempt to stop people doing this and making others ill in the process

the second employee sounds awful. Thankfully I haven’t had anyone like that work for me as they would get short thrift also, but my MIL who is now retired used to say every Autumn “oh, I haven’t taken my full sick leave entitlement yet this year. I better call in sick soon”

Re-posting what I wrote upthread in case it's helpful.

This is how many, probably most, employers calculate sickness absence.

If your first day sick is Friday and you return the following Wednesday, that's counted as 5 days, not 3. Unless you were better on Sat/Sun then sick again on Mon/Tue it's classed as one continuous absence.

If you were better on Sat/Sun but absent again on Mon/Tue, it would be counted as 3 days but 2 separate absences (and 3 separate absences in a rolling 12 month period usually triggers further action such as an OH referral so there's no advantage to claiming to be better over the weekend).

It sounds as though this is what has happened, OP's either had e.g. one absence Fri-Tues (5 days) and another of e.g. Thu-Tues (6 days). Or worse, 2 absences Fri-Mon and another Friday sick but has put Fit For Work date as Monday morning so counted as 3 days Fri/Sat/Sun.

Return to Work forms usually ask for 2 dates, the date you actually return to work e.g. Monday, but also the date you were "Fit for Work" i.e. you would have been able to work if that date had been a normal working day. In other words the day you were better, even if it was a weekend.

This is why, if you are sick on a Friday (regardless of when the absence started), but return to work on the following Monday, even if you were sick as a dog till Sunday evening, I would advise putting your Fit for Work date as Saturday morning so that the weekend is not counted as absence.

Many people just put the FFW date as the same date they returned to work, not realising that it's the FFW date that ends the absence, regardless of the actual first day back at work..

How long was the probation period? It is normally 6 months so at this stage there should be a mid review meeting where you would advise that your probation may not be successful for.. (and set out the reasons) this gives you the opportunity to make changes, improve etc. Seems really unfair to not have warned you that this could be a possibility.

She already said she didn’t even know there was a probation period and probation is irrelvant, there is no employment rights before 2 years, the op worked there several weeks and took somewhere between 6 and 11 days off in that period, so they terminated,

I’m not disputing any of that, and have said several times that the OP’s absences don’t appear to be disability related, even if she had declared the disability in the first place. Where it is disability related, and the condition meets the definition of disability under the Equality Act, then proper procedures must be followed and alternative solutions to dismissal investigated before letting the employee go. That’s the law.

Of course, but the fact she’s never told them she’s got a disability kind of moots that, no?

Op in terms of your absence for your child's sickness you are entitled to 5 days (unpaid) for caring for a "dependent". ACAS guidance confirms this includes children.

www.gov.uk/carers-leave

Perhaps ask for a breakdown of the time they allege you've taken in the first instance to see if that reduces the number down? Also, Maybe see whether your son's sickness could be reclassified as the above detailed leave (would be unpaid unless they agree to pay to reduce sickness further? The problem with this is that even if you do, they may just look to let you go anyway at this point so keep looking for another job regardless.

What this policy resulted in, in my Council workplace, was employees were effectively incentivised to take more time off than they actually needed, knowing that every occasion counted as a strike. I think that at ours, instances were weighted higher than number of days off.

We had one colleague that everyone suspected to be faking it taking 5-7 days off every year, knowing she could do that quite easily without being questioned. I could tell my boss felt awkward having to sit down either me or one of my other colleagues and having to ask us about the whole instances thing when our number of days off were so low, and our days off were preferable to having us come in and infect everyone with norovirus or flu.

They have already let her go, reclassifying her days off won’t suddenly make them re hire her, it’s done.

@Wickedlittledancer at this point the OP has nothing to lose so there is no harm in a conversation taking place (regardless of classification) even if it focuses on settling the actual number of days she took given the disparity - OP saying six days vs employer stating eleven. Relevant as future employer is likely to ask how many days sick she has has in past 12 months.

@cooksbrandedclockIt’s not very clear if it was 6 separate occasions or 6 days in total. If someone has a sickness bug the medical advice is not to be in contact with people for 48 hours after the symptoms stop (and symptoms could be anything from a day to a few weeks), so 6 days off really isn’t very much at all. Being ill for a week isn’t being “unreliable”, it’s not like the person is just taking the time off for fun. Again, would you rather they came in with a vomiting bug?

@GoodQueenWenceslausIn this case the boss appeared to be sympathetic and seemed ok with the absences at the time, so no, the person wouldn’t automatically assume it would endanger their job. A couple of months after I started my job I came down with a virus and my boss encouraged me to take time off to recover, even though I was still in the probation period. Not everybody works for a shit employer.

I'm sorry OP but that is a lot of time off. Even 6 days is more than most have off in a year. Could you not have taken paracetamol and put up with it? You said two days off for migraines, what were all the rest for? Were you meant to work some Saturdays but didn't turn up and that would make it up to the 11 days they are stating. If a member of staff is off that much during their promotion period I'd be nervous hiring them, as surely they would be off more when they are not on probation and have signed their contract.

You say that you didn't know about the probation period OP, if you had known would your absence have been any better?

Sorry you've lost your job OP.
Its very odd that there is such a huge discrepancy in the record of sick days - surely you have some form of record and can challenge them.
I have to say though it's very unwise of you to have started working without a signed contract in place, and to let that continue to slip for a full 3 months. If it was a genuine admin oversight they would have readily addressed it if you'd raised it, and if not then you are well out of there.

3 months is a normal probation period for an employee. I honestly think with the amount of days off you've had they had no choice. They were probably looking long term and unfortunately didn't think you were very reliable.

What does your offer of employment letter say?

Contact ACAS, they are really helpful.