(TW : Discusses rape stats) AIBU to find this interview with Louise Perry insulting to both women and men?

[Carla786]

I still think Louise Perry has valid points in her 2022 book The Case Against The Sexual Revolution and some of her Maiden Mother Matriarch podcast interviews, although I've always had disagreements with quite a few of her points

I cam across this interview today and was shocked, however. She badly states that she thinks 1/3 of men would commit rape given the chance of getting away with it.

Evidence? In her book, she does cite a study of US college students where 1/4 of the men said they would force sex if they could get away with it. (Higher numbers said yes when asked that than when asked if they would commit rape if they could get away with it).

But 1/4 is not 1/3, and a sample of US college students is not 'all men'. I searched for other studies giving such high numbers, but could find none. I myself believe that the numbers of men who would do that are higher than we'd like to think, but I certainly don't think they're as high as 1/3, and tossing around this kind of unsubstantiated claim feels insulting to men on general

She's spoken of the huge impression working for Rape Crisis for her gap year had on her, so maybe that's given her a skewed view?

Furthermore, if she sincerely believes that 1/3 of men are that evil, why on earth does she keep encouraging women to marry as early as possible and have kids younger? I don't think there's anything wrong with marriage and kids young, but I certainly wouldn't give that advice if I believed 1/3 of men were potential rapists! lt feels profoundly immoral to encourage women to prioritise marriage so much if you believe 1/3 of men would rape. Particularly as someone who claims to be so knowledgeable about abuse surely knows that those men who would rape or abuse are more likely to step that up when a woman's pregnant or raising a young kid.

MN thoughts? Am I overreacting, or is this position both disturbing and profoundly insulting to both men and women?

This thread keeps drifting into detached global anthropology, cultural theory and academic breakdowns. It’s a very unusual tone for a teenager discussing male violence here, and absolutely nothing like how an average 19 year old woman would frame this topic.

It reads much more like an intellectual flex than a genuine discussion. On that basis I wont be commenting further.

That's still dysfunctional though- but I take your point it's not sadistic. One counterargument against feminist criticisms of porn I've seen is that men who watch porn generally like the woman to appear to be enjoying it (thus reinforcing the dysfunctionality of rapists not having the woman's thoughts enter into their priorities) - though the upsurge of violent porn with unhappy-looking women does seem to challenge that ( could be argued that violent porn increase is pushed by studios trying to hook viewers on more extreme stuff)

Re murder : some murderers might consider that. I suppose some maybe rationalise it by choosing painless methods (at least supppsedly). But they're still causing pain to the victim's family and friends, obviously.

Can I ask who that Indian comedienne is? She certainly has a point considering recent pushes for violent porn to be normalised.

Re repeatedly using the word 'rape' : The reason I'm using 'rape' rather than 'sexual assault' is because I've seen some surveys/articles use 'sexual assault' to cover a range of things from forced sex to groping. Groping is obviously horrible and criminal but I think it's important to be clear what is being talked about.

I don't think she would describe herself as a "fan" of JP, but she did write in defense of him once that if men followed his advice, feminism would no longer be required to the extent it currently is. I think she's correct.

I think the majority of men wouldn’t view a man not stopping mid sex as rape

or a man taking off a condom without consent to not use a condom and taking it off while having sex and partner not noticing as rape

or when a women is sleepy and not said yes or no or responded in a way that’s a definite no as rape

so yes I agree with her

With the whole fraternity thing, there’s something about groups of people and possibly especially men. It empowers behaviour that individuals might not dare.

I was thinking this : Madness of Crowds etc..

But it's definitely a particularly male thing to escalate to rape. Groups of women might do lots of horrible things, but highly unlikely they'd conspire to incapacitate and harm a man like that

Hmm..yes,,I've read that defence.

The main issue I have with it is that the main things he's said that make me dislike him ('I don't think lesbians exist' for one) are in his YouTube & SM stuff. If you just read his books like Twelve Rules For Life & the other Rules book, he comes over as a nice man with a lot of good advice. Online he becomes a horrible edge lord often, it seems to bring out the worst in him. Thinking about it, that's true about a lot of well-known people. Charlie Kirk was a similar case. In debates he was courteous etc, on his talk show (inspired by Rush Limbaugh) he was much more offensive.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=thecritic.co.uk/issues/april-2020/the-feminist-case-for-jordan-peterson/&ved=2ahUKEwjomqUifqQAxVJWUEAHW0tER0QFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1H_<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?opi=89978449&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fthecritic.co.uk%2Fissues%2Fapril-2020%2Fthe-feminist-case-for-jordan-peterson%2F&usg=AOvVaw1H<u>C</u>1BUPIGamkWYNpJOSQ&ved=2ahUKEwjomq<u>UifqQAxVJWUEAHW0tER0QFnoECB4QAQ" rel="nofollow" target="blank">C1BUPIGamkWYNpJOSQ

Both rape and CSA are totally normal male sexual behaviours. Societies criminalise them to a greater or lesser degree.

Yes...I don't think she means to insult anyone.

while I've dug into these stats and they don't seem to have been collected badly, otoh I've read of some surveys where it's argued that stuff like giving male students extra credit for participating could bias it. On Reddit I've seen men suggest that male students were answering yes to rape questions to 'troll' or 'joke', possible, but almost as depressing that they'd view abuse stats as a joke& deliberately mess them up.

Some interesting stuff in Time about the 1 in 5 women statistic. I do think it's possible some surveys of potential male rapists and potential female victims are inflating numbers, but otoh so many who've suffered may not answer yes for various reasons. For one thing, surveying college students doesn't give a good idea of potential lifetime prevalence.

https://behavioralscientist.org/what-the-origins-of-the-1-in-5-statistic-teaches-us-about-sexual-assault-policy/

https://time.com/2934500/1-in-5-campus-sexual-assault-statistic/

The Gisele Pelicot case should teach you that it’s more men than you think. I believe even 40% of men is underestimated. They were doctors, lawyers,teachers, refuse workers, policemen that abused that incredible woman. They all took part. Not one reported anything. The French press even nicknamed them ‘Mr Everyman.’

I was thinking that...what's even more disturbing is the amount of men on a the drug website (& similar) who haven't been caught. ...

College students are used for a million studies. In human behaviour loads of it is based on JUST psychology students, because you have to get credits.

But it’s rarely mentioned. In discussion about this study, it comes up every time. Because it makes men look bad.

That's what I was thinking : that surely offering extra credit is probably standard?

And it's weird and disturbing that extra credit or 'trolling' would mean that non-rapist men would mistakenly or deliberately (in the case of trolling) incorrectly claim to have raped someone

People lie in both directions. And it’s typically corrected for.

Where’s your evidence that’s actually happening though?

Most of the surveys used are validated measures of behaviour. It’s not just students being sat in a room and asked “have you ever raped someone?” They’re carefully designed by scientists to reliably measure the phenomena of interest. It doesn’t mean we can’t critique them, but you just seem dismissive of anything that doesn’t fit your preconceived ideas.

Case in point: I shared studies with you outside of a college setting where the prevalence of offending was HIGHER than most colleague studies and you ignored it.

This is such a stark and valid point.

This.

I completely agree.

The stats Perry quoted are not basic stats. It was a sample of 76 men from a North Dakota college. I think it does provide a worrying insight into US college attitudes, but it's a leap to say that those automatically apply to men in general.

If you go onto FWR you can find lots of long threads about worrying porn trends, especially re topics that were long verboten elsewhere like AGP stuff. It's not because the posters there are porn obsesssives, it's because they're trying to investigate the extent of practices that are moving into real life (trans obviously, also rise in women being choked by partners) .

I'm sorry, I missed that post. Let me check that study now.

That makes sense. People act as if professors running it wouldn't be aware of this, which seems unlikely.

I do think though that this article raises some valid points. The answers were apparently on a scale from 1 to 10. 10 being 'would definitely', 1 'wouldn't'. Most men it seems put 1, some put 2, these were the majority of the 'yes' responses. There were responses above 5 but much fewer.

Some also think the questions were phrased in a confusing way, but I don't agree with that.

I think the papers reporting should have been clearer about the scale method used, but it's still very disturbing that that amount would consider that if they wouldn't face consequences.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/pop-psych/201601/exaggerating-with-statistics-about-rape/amp