To think parents expect too much of schools?

[Arbel]

We all know state schools are desperately underfunded, with big class sizes and kids with English as a second language and unmet SEN needs lumped into mainstream.

I have a son in year 2 and a daughter in year 5. Last night on the year 2 WhatsApp, several mums were bemoaning the fact that their kids don’t know the days of the week in order, can’t spell their own middle names and have illegible handwriting. Surely as parents, you care enough to educate your own kids on such basic matters?!

I think if multiple children are having difficulties then yes I’d be looking at the teaching, at home and school.

Yanbu. Likewise it’s disappointing how many children start reception without knowing basics like shapes and colours.

I totally agree, the parents need to take some responsibility, not moan on whattsapp.
Very lazy parenting, I worked, and so did my then husband, but we still found the time to make sure our children knew the basics.
The moaning is just to justify their own lack of effort.

I think part of it is parents who are time-poor, and part of it is the relentless kid-ification of everything with downtime focussed primarily on entertaining the kids.

Because so much time is spent focussed on their entertainment, children don't get as much general day to day life / real world exposure as they used to. You can teach them an awful lot if you let them be bored and take them round the supermarket with you or put the news on instead of Bluey or talk to them about what you're cooking. Or have them with you when you're doing chores. "On Monday we change the beds, on Tuesday the bins go out, on Saturday we go shopping" etc etc.

Its not a new thing though. I could read when I started school (too many years ago!) but I was the only one in my class. Mum had to send back the picture books I was sent home with. Part of that was due to her reading to me religiously, part of it was giving me books and letting me entertain myself (we also went to the library every week and I still remember that being a highlight).

My son is doing absolutely fine, as was my daughter. We incorporate learning into everyday life, read daily, and do all the homework set. The school’s performance data is average.

The teacher probably doesn’t even know these kids’ middle names, let alone have time to spend individually teaching them…

I wonder if it's gradual erosion of expectation? When I started school in the early 1960's I was expected to take myself to the toilet, dress myself, know my name, address, date of birth, some simple facts about my world, colours, be able to count, etc.

When my kids went to school in the '90s, a lot of these expectations had been eroded. They could all read, use the toilet, dress themselves etc but this wasn't as expected as it was when I went. I remember the shock at the fact that they could all read and write their names and write numbers. So perhaps the next generation has had more of the expectation of learning eroded from them? I know it was said that you shouldn't teach your child to learn to read before school because it would interfere with the teaching methods used, so some people just didn't.

And so it will go on down, until it reaches ridiculous levels, whereupon there will start to be 'getting ready for school' classes you can attend with your child to teach them what they will need to know?

I’d expect Y2 to know the days of the week, spelling their middle names wouldn’t be something I’d expect school to do anything with regards to teaching. Handwriting is something that can take time and often there can be reasons behind it which don’t become evident until Y2 and upwards.

It often appears that many parents only want to do the fun parts of parenting - with so many parents now working, they like to spend the time they do have with their children doing the exciting, fun things and would prefer to leave the other less appealing stuff to school, outsource it to someone else. But I wonder why even bother having children if that’s the case. School is an addition, a benefit to a child - parents are so keen to be a child’s friend now they sometimes forget that they themselves are the child’s first and primary teacher. If a parent doesn’t teach a child to tie their laces, use the bathroom, dress themselves - school isn’t going to be able to do this. Not of all this is fun, or enjoyable, but parents need to take responsibility for it all.

We learnt to read, basic writting, counting and knew the alphabet before going to school.

Problem being some of those parents probably weren't bought up being taught the basics either, it's just something to be added to the list of unlearnt generational behaviours.

I work in a primary school and have seen a real decline in what children are able to do.
We have to parent the parents as much as we do the children.

There's probably no time left to teach them anything by the time they've dealt with all the other crap that parents are constantly demanding they must do.

Personally, I think it’s a parental responsibility to teach colours, days and months-school can’t cover everything !

If a NT year 2 child doesn’t know the days of the week then that’s down to poor parenting.

We do start school earlier though. DS was 4 years one month and wouldn't have been ready for reading yet. I'm sure not the case for all kids but it's not just parents not bothering. Outcomes have risen a lot actually.

Middle names is obviously ridiculous! Handwriting is tricky as I think there is less focus on it. There is too much in the primary curriculum to focus on some of the basics imo.

I was a kid in the 1960s and 70s, both my parents worked full time (Mum on nights) throughout my childhood. I could read and write well before I began primary school, toilet myself etc, and tbh I can only recall maybe two or three kids who couldn't do these things.

It's probably a few lessons a year in KS1 so needs to be re-enforced a lot.

Is there guidance anywhere on what children should be able to do when starting Reception?

I know friends of mine have been reluctant to start on reading/phonics before school as they don’t want to a) do it “wrong” in terms of sounds, so the child has to relearn or b) have the child so far ahead that they’re bored. I don’t know if either of those situations are ones you often see?

Wow, that is the very definition of over thinking - worrying about over teaching or not teaching in exactly the correct way pre school!

What ever happened to just talking to your pre school kids, reading to them, pointing out things that are different colours, taking them to museums, seeing different animals in farm parks, counting, saying what day of the week it is etc? Of course, if your child has identified learning difficulties then you might want to work a bit before school to try and get them on a level with their peers. And if you have a child who is showing signs of wanting to be able to read, then you’d encourage and facilitate that. But mainly the pre school years should consist of learning through experience, not formal teaching.

No l was talking about the more personal things like toileting and putting shoes/coats on.
And manners are appaling- you are lucky to get a please or thank you without reminding them (that's all years not just littlies)

I tutor secondary-aged students , most of whom have had time out of school but who have no specific or general learning difficulties. It’s interesting what students don’t know, for instance the months of the year in order.

For example, I had one student whose birthday was in early August, but he had no idea where that came in the year, So, it was late June but he didn’t know if his birthday was quite soon or many months away. We know the rhythm of the year, with school terms, half terms and holidays, but it’s quite likely that some students do not. Like months, school terms are not all the same length.

The problem in filling the knowledge gaps is working out which things which you’d think were common knowledge, which many of the class may know but some don’t.

I’ve noticed this with friends of my daughter - we’ve had conversations about upcoming birthday parties, for instance, and they know their own birthdays but have no idea which will be next.

There’s also seemingly a big lack of general knowledge which I find weird because I know these kids do watch Newsround at school, read books, learn about artists, try sports and so on. Yet if you ask them a question they just “dunno.” These are children who are very comfortable in our house and generally confident so I find it strange.

Aren't those basics the school should be teaching them?!

My kids haven't started school yet in the UK, but from what we were told at all the school visits, in reception and year 1 they do play based learning, wood work, learn to ride a bike, forest school, computing, painting... Another bunch of stuff as well from Y2.

That's great and really cool stuff, but that's all things that could and should be learned at home. Reading, writing and spelling on the other hand, are 100% why I send my kids to school in the first place.

I work in early years. Every day through Nursery and Reception we sing the days of the week song and discuss what day it is. We still have children who struggle to grasp it by the end of reception!

The children who are best able to grasp the concept are often those who have parents who also look at these things at home. It does seem to be a tricky concept for many though.

I started school in early 80s. Sahm, like the other kids in our street. None of us were able to read or write before we got there.
However, we were all fully potty trained, could use knives and forks and were able to play out independently. Our parents just left school to get on with things.

If you met my dc, you would not think get had the same parents. One presents as highly academic, if lazy. The other one appears to have taken the stereotype of the dizzy blonde as a guide to life. I have no idea where her head is when we have discussions.

Unfortunately schools are having to spend as much time parenting kids as the are educating them