A difficult conversation

[coldiris]

We recently had our 20-year old kitchen replaced. Unfortunately, everything that could go wrong starting from our choice of supplier to the fitting has gone wrong. I posted earlier about my issue with electricity certification but besides the fact that I feel very upset with the sense of injustice over having paid so much money for the kitchen and fitting and having to endure the stress of dealing with issues for months, I am now faced with a moral dilemma which I hope anyone reading will help me resolve.

The fitter who installed our kitchen was not certified to do electric and gas work. So I had to call a certified electrician and gas engineers to certify his work. Gas was fine as it was only a cooker he connected. However, a lot of issues were identified with electrics, which means that now a lot of what he did would need to be redone. Unfortunately, I expect the cost of it to be quite high. I still haven't paid the fitter for the fitting work that he did on our kitchen. I am now expecting a quote from the electrician I asked to certify his electric work and I think it may exceed the fitter's fees for the fitting. My mind tells me that it's the fitter's fees that should go towards paying for redoing electrical work that he's done but I anticipate that this isn't going to be an easy conversation to have. However, whichever angle I look at it from I can't see why we need to pay the fitter for fitting our kitchen and then be out of pocket to cover remediation of the work that he should have never undertaken given that he doesn't have the right qualifications and registration to do it. It is already quite optimistic to think that his fee will cover the work and we may still end up out of pocket as I don't think he will be covering any of the costs.

What would you do?

The original fitter screwed up. They can therefore take the hit.

If the kitchen was 20 years old and electrical standards are different now, is the problem definitely 100% down to the fitter or did some of the electrical problems exist already? We had a lot of electrical stuff done on our new house as even stuff that sounds fairly recent was no longer safe by modern standards.

If you’re sure about where the responsibility lies then yeah it’s a tough one. Guess you will have to see if the fitter admits to being at fault or it might end up going through court.

@Spookyspaghetti I did think about the issues which may have existed before the kitchen installation but we had the electrical safety certification when we bought the house in 2013. The previous owner provided during the sale. I appreciate that the standards may have also changed since then but from what I see on the report, quite a lot of the issues identified refer to the electrician's work. For example: exposed insulated conducts in some lighting, no mechanical protection to the cables, no fire rating in recessed lights etc, etc.

The majority of identified faults relate to the work that he has done. He could argue that I bought the recessed lights myself but I did consult him about which ones would be ok to buy and he confirmed that the ones I chose were ok to buy. If he was a certified electrician, he would have had to tell me that they had to be fire rated but he didn't. So not only did I waste money on the lights that I will now have to have taken out but also have to pay for having them all re-done. In addition to that, I may still end up with having to redecorate the room after all this rework is performed, and I dread to imagine the idea of having to take apart any part of the kitchen to access any cables now!

Only some work that was identified was performed before the kitchen but it doesn't sound like that work is mandatory which is why the electrician rated it as C3 "needs improvement" rather than "dangerous" or "potentially dangerous"

@Spookyspaghetti Guess you will have to see if the fitter admits to being at fault or it might end up going through court.

I don't think he will admit the fault but I am also not sure it would be a good idea for him to take us to court. I understand it's a criminal offence to undertake electrical and gas work without certifications?

Sorry, but I think you have to suck up the additional cost.
You made the decision to use a non-certified electrician to do your electrics (including giving you advice on fittings!). He didn’t get it right, so now you have to pay for a certified sparky to fix things. All on you I’m afraid.

@Swiftie1878 The kitchen company obtained quotes and introduced him to us. I just accepted the quote. It never occurred to me to check his certifications as I honestly never expected the big brand to find an uncertified fitter, obtain quotes from him and send him to customers' homes. I guess that could well be my fault but I don't know how many people would think of that. Thank you for sharing your opinion anyway. Certainly, a lesson to be learnt.

When did you find out he was not qualified?

How did you even find lights that were unsafe in the UK?! Did you try to do them on the cheap from Temu or something? It sounds like you tried to save money on this and are now looking for someone else to pay. If the fitter had just fitted the kitchen and a proper sparky had done the electrics, would it have come to much more than getting a sparky out later to do the job? You’ve effectively still had to hire/pay the two trades you needed to hire and pay in the first place. Sparkys don’t generally fit kitchens!

@Cosyblankets when I asked him for certificates! He told us he couldn't certification because he wasn't certifed! 😒

But a kitchen fitter was almost certainly never going to also be a certified electrician, OP — surely you knew that? We’re having a kitchen fitted at the moment, and the electrician, plumber and gas engineer are entirely separate to the kitchen fitter, who just makes and installs the units etc.

@CuboidRectangle How did you even find lights that were unsafe in the UK?! Did you try to do them on the cheap from Temu or something? It sounds like you tried to save money on this and are now looking for someone else to pay

I bought them from Amazon but not all lights need to be fire rated in the UK. It just depends on where they are installed and what materials surround them, so in short you can buy lights that are not fire rated. It's not a crime or quality issue.

@WellSurely But a kitchen fitter was almost certainly never going to also be a certified electrician, OP — surely you knew that?

Unfortunately, I didn't. It honestly never occurred to me that an uncertified person would quote to undertake electrical and gas work. I only changed my kitchen once before and actually my previous fitter was a certified electrtician.

I had a kitchen fitted last year. We had a plumber, two fitters, electrician and a plasterer.
I wouldn't have expected the jobs to be done by the same person

Where did you buy the kitchen from? I’m in the process of having mine done and the 3 places I got quotes from specifically stated it’s a “dry fit” which doesn’t include plumbing and electrics. You’ll need to see what the quote says first and foremost. If you didn’t ask if he was certified then some of the onus is on you for assuming. I don’t think it’s illegal to do some electrical work with no certificate (my husband does it) as long as it complies with regulations.
Your fitter also did the gas with no certificate and you seem ok with it because it passed the checks.

Another angle here is, if the fitter was sent to
you by the supplier from whom you bought the kitchen, maybe you should raise it with them and possibly claim against them; You describe them as a big brand so it would seem reasonable to expect that someone they send would be suitably certified.

@bringonthecrumpets the kitchen supplier provided a single quote for dry fit and additional work. Additional work included electrics and gas and also said "including certification". This is why it never occurred to me to even ask any questions about it.

@Clarinet1 I already spoke to the kitchen company. They don't want to hear about it because he is not a part of their company and they say it's got nothing to do with them.

Additional work included electrics and gas and also said "including certification".

Have you asked him why he quoted for this work and claimed he was certified when he is not?

It seems to me that your answer here to @bringonthecrumpets proves that the kitchen company do have liability - they’re just trying to wriggle out of it. However I’m sorry you have such a battle on your hands.

@notaweddingdress He said he knows a certified a electrician and gas engineer who could certify his work but told me I'd need to pay separately for that. His quote by the way says nothing of having to pay separately for this. By the time it became clear he couldn't certify his own work, I decided to find certified people myself as I became quite concerned about the lack of independence from someone he knows. So I went on Gas Safe and NICEIC and found registered people myself.

Even if they didn't have the liability for his work, I would have thought they should be liable for not checking certifications of people from whom they obtain quote for such work and sending them to their unsuspecting customers' homes!

Exactly.

You chose the guy, you then asked his advice knowing he wasnt qualified to give it, you allowed him to do a job he wasnt qualified to do.

@coldiris - was it Wickes you went through? If so I had a very similar issue & in the end they had to pay another company to rip the entire thing out & re-do it properly. It would have cost them more to pay this company than I paid them in the first place but it was their issue & deserved to be out of pocket for it. It was a hard slog getting them to do anything and they were an awful company to deal with but I wouldnt give up and got there in the end, plus compensation.

@coldiris don't suppose the company is Wickes by any chance?

Your post is giving me deja vu from my experience with them. They absolutely do have responsibility, if it's set up in a similar way to our contract with them. They are vicariously liable as they provided you with the introduction and set out the items which he would complete on their behalf.

Did the kitchen fitter's quote include a certification for gas & electrics?
At what stage did he tell you he could not certify the electrics & gas? Was this before any work was done?
And that the certificate was not included in his quote?
Its always more expensive to pay an electrician to come and redo another person / electrician's work.
Have you told him the list of electrician work that needs to be redone to meet the certificate ?
Has he said he will redo this work so the electrical can then be recheck for the certificate requirement?
As unless it was agreed between you and the fitter, that any work not meeting certification would be redone by your electrician & not the fitter with this cost taken from the fitter's bill, the actual cost of fitting the kitchen should still be paid.

I would go back to the fitter and look for you both to compromise on a lesser price

Have you got any legal cover with your home
Insurance? If so, I would contact them. I think your issue is legal, not moral.

I feel like you might be able to ask for a reduction in price but I also feel like it is partly your fault for not employing a qualified person in the first place.