A difficult conversation

[coldiris]

We recently had our 20-year old kitchen replaced. Unfortunately, everything that could go wrong starting from our choice of supplier to the fitting has gone wrong. I posted earlier about my issue with electricity certification but besides the fact that I feel very upset with the sense of injustice over having paid so much money for the kitchen and fitting and having to endure the stress of dealing with issues for months, I am now faced with a moral dilemma which I hope anyone reading will help me resolve.

The fitter who installed our kitchen was not certified to do electric and gas work. So I had to call a certified electrician and gas engineers to certify his work. Gas was fine as it was only a cooker he connected. However, a lot of issues were identified with electrics, which means that now a lot of what he did would need to be redone. Unfortunately, I expect the cost of it to be quite high. I still haven't paid the fitter for the fitting work that he did on our kitchen. I am now expecting a quote from the electrician I asked to certify his electric work and I think it may exceed the fitter's fees for the fitting. My mind tells me that it's the fitter's fees that should go towards paying for redoing electrical work that he's done but I anticipate that this isn't going to be an easy conversation to have. However, whichever angle I look at it from I can't see why we need to pay the fitter for fitting our kitchen and then be out of pocket to cover remediation of the work that he should have never undertaken given that he doesn't have the right qualifications and registration to do it. It is already quite optimistic to think that his fee will cover the work and we may still end up out of pocket as I don't think he will be covering any of the costs.

What would you do?

We had a similar experience of dodging responsibility, with Wren. In our case, they sourced our fitter for an extra fee (which included responsibility for the fit / finding alternatives if the fitter couldn't do it). The fitter was responsible for the entire fit and he outsourced the electics. The sparky left 4 live unfitted sockets for over 4 weeks whilst he had a nervous breakdown about something else. There were other issues which I won't bore you with, but when I checked the electric work with another electrician, with the live sockets in situ and no-one answering any emails, calls or requests to finish the job, he said I should go to Trading Standards, or at least suggest to Wren that I would. I didn't do it in the end, but I think I should have done, as the electrician was clearly completely incompetent and if someone had touched the sockets (we have 3 kids), they would have been killed. I still have flashbacks to the stress the kitchen fit caused, and the complete absence of help from Wren (and the ironic "we're here to help!" auto signatures they put at the bottom of their emails).

This is why I never get the fitter from the place that sold me the kitchen. 😬

@toomuchfaff like I said the fitter was introduced to us by the kitchen company. His quote included certification. I had no idea he wasn't certified.

@MissIonX and @Tryingmybest100 it was Kutchenhaus and unfortunately there will be no way that you could argue with them the way you would with Wickes. All their branches operate on a franchise basis, i.e. they are all independent legal entities. Their HQ couldn't care less what they do in each town/city and takes no responsibility for anything other than lend them the brand name and the glossy brochures for marketing and sales. It's like dealing with AN Other Kitchens Ltd in the end. Nobody cares. Well, our local branch just doesn't give a rat's behind. They said it wasn't their issue and they are not responsible for it.

I am tempted to report HQ to Trading Standards to be honest as they should be responsibile for upholding quality of service standards among their branches, not just sell the glossy brochures with big brand name on them while providing zero aftersales support to their customers in the end and washing their hands off everything when issues arise.

@Dora33 the fitter's quote included certification. This was the reason why I had no idea he wasn't certified. I only found out about it when I asked him for certificates at the end of the installation. I wouldn't ask him to redo the work because he is not certified and given that a certified electrician identified a lot of issues with his work, I would suggest that he is not qualified to redo the work. I am certainly planning to tell him about the issues identified. What's more, I will share the report I got that outlines all issues as well as the quote, so he can see how much it's going to cost to fix all those issues.

@dizzydizzydizzy the kitchen supplier already said they are not going to do anything about this. Unfortunately, there is no legal cover in our home insurance either 😒

You say that you will be out of pocket but why is it ok for the fitter to be out of pocket when you are expecting him to do a number of different skills that it would be very unusual for him to be certified on each one. You were trying to save money and now expect him to pay when it has all gone wrong.

If his quote included certification and both gas and electrical work he is neither qualified nor insured to do then I suggest speaking to citizens advice and your local authority.

I would try to negotiate a reduction in the bill and if that doesn’t work you might want to consider talking to a solicitor - depending on how much money we are taking about.

Well I presume the kitchen fitter held himself out to capable of doing those things. If I ask someone to do electrical work and they say they can do it and it will be certified if I pay them, then I can expect to get certified electrical works done.

If it turns out they’re not qualified and done a shoddy job, they should absolutely be the ones who take the hit and not me - they should’ve said no to doing the work in the first place, not taken my money for something they couldn’t do?

That’s like you ordering something in a shop, then when it doesn’t arrive they saying well you’re not getting a refund as we couldn’t source what you wanted - you should’ve bought it from somewhere more expensive that guaranteed its arrival…

If his quote included certification, why not throw him that fish and let him get it sorted then? Its his problem to provide certificates and if he provides fraudulent ones then you have leverage?

@zeebra I wasn't trying to save money on his work. I was given a quote by the kitchen supplier, and I accepted it, and I wouldn't say it was cheap! We paid thousands for the so called additional work he carried out. We are not talking about few hundred pounds here. The only thing I still haven't paid is the fitting fee. It may well be unusual for a fitter to have multiple skills but it isn't impossible. I wouldn't be quoting for work that I wasn't qualified to do and then state "including certification", which you are not qualified or registered to give. Is it ok for him to be out of pocket? No, it probably isn't but it is a direct consequence of his actions. I blame myself only for trusting the brand of the kitchen supplier and not being vigilant enough to check his certifications myself.

I did ask him to provide certification. He said I have to pay separately for it and he can bring his mate to do it. I now don't trust his mate to do it even if he is certified to be honest. He is refusing to do it without a separate payment despite the fact that his quote says certification is included in his work.

When he said pay separately, id have referred to the original quote; Its included? If he cant organise it thats his problem.

Let him tie his own noose. He organises a fraudulent certificate - hes goosed

If he is refusing and its in his quote then Trading Standards would be my next port of call, cowboy builder scammer type approach. I had dealings with them with a fence fitter; the threat of Trading Standards was enough to move him.

Don't pay, OP. He is in breach of contract if you have paid for certification and he cannot provide it. Also report him to trading standards.

@toomuchfaff When he said pay separately, id have referred to the original quote; Its included?

He said the kitchen supplier should provide certification but it's his quote, not theirs. Their fault is in sending him to their unsuspecting customers without undertaking any form of due diligence but certification was his responsibility and he is completely refusing to do it without additional payment. I am honestly not in the mood of making more payments to him for something that should have been done properly and certified to begin with.

@CryMyEyesViolet That’s like you ordering something in a shop, then when it doesn’t arrive they saying well you’re not getting a refund as we couldn’t source what you wanted - you should’ve bought it from somewhere more expensive that guaranteed its arrival…

Thank you! Exactly how I see this situation too. I would have never quoted for the job I wasn't qualified to do and included certifications in it. I have no idea what price has to do with it! Everyone quotes what they think their skills and time are worth. He did. It cost us thousands of pounds, and I already paid for that work. No, it isn't great for him to be out of pocket but as I said it is a consequence of his actions. I honestly don't see why I should be out of pocket having paid him thousands for the job he shouldn't have undertaken.

If HE did the electrical work then HE is the one at fault!! HE should have said from the start you would need a separate electrician as HE isn’t qualified!!! NOT YOUR FAULT at all!!! I’d tell him you won’t be paying him until the additional remedial works have been done and the cock ups he’s done sorted and tell the kitchen company they will need to pay him and also claim back the additional costs it’s costs you to get the mess sorted!!!

be prepared to take the kitchen company and fitter to court if need be

I agree with you, OP. The fitter is at fault and, whilst I do think you should pay for the 'fitting' part of the job, you shouldn't pay for the 'extras' (i.e. electrics he wasn't certified to do) and he should really cover the cost of rectifying his errors. I asked a handyman who was doing other work in the property if he could also replace light fittings and he said he was honest and said he could, but he wasn't certified to do so. I ended up getting a certified electrician to do the job.

I would keep all future communications in writing and I would report both the kitchen company and the fitter to trading standards.

Thank you, all, for your responses and advice. A brief update: got the quote. As expected, all electrics are very expensive to rectify. I guess I may now be faced with that difficult conversation!