Thread 19: To feel disappointed after reading this in The Observer about the author and her husband from The Salt Path book and film?

[DisappointedReader]

The Observer's original exposé: The real Salt Path: how a blockbuster book and film were ...

First thread: To feel disappointed after reading this in The Observer about the author and her husband from The Salt Path book and film? | Mumsnet

Links to threads 2-16, the other 20 Observer articles and videos to date, Raynor Winn/Sally Walker's statement, our timeline and sources can all be accessed in the OP and first few posts of Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5403285-thread-17-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5422393-thread-18-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

New posters joining us in the genuine spirit of our civil discourse are welcome. It would be helpful to get the background from at least some of the Observer exposé items before posting.
To all - Please be extremely cautious when it comes to naming or implicating people and addresses not in the public eye or with no direct connection to the story, and around the understandable health speculations, especially where details are unclear or still emerging. Remember, even Hollywood rabbits attract the odd flea. Please do not engage with drive-by scolders who seem to have their own agenda and seek to derail. Avoid @'ing and quoting them as - from experience - this will only encourage them back to the threads. Over four months we have done amazingly well together for 18 very interesting, very serious and very silly threads so far. I can't be here as much as I'd like so all help with keeping our discussion walking along in our usual reasonable and respectful fashion is very welcome.

Keep to the path. No saltiness. May the fudge and cider be with you.

"I'll fight anyone who says I'll make it to Christmas 2021!"

Well, yes. Unless he was perfectly fine then and his illness has been shunted backwards in time to suit the narrative of TSP!

Because the story requires him to have had grave enough symptoms for long enough to get through the lengthy processes of getting from the ‘going to your GP with an ache’ to the stage of seeing a consultant just after they lose the house. If he’s as unwell as SW represents him as being at the start of the walk, then he has to have been getting steadily worse for years, and if he’s that bad, then he can’t have worked.

But, as you say, being unable to work would have entitled him to a disability benefit. Which there’s no mention of…

Tim was supposed to be suffering from symptoms prior to the consultation in 2015 (the real life date of the consultation) He certainly wasn't disabled by his condition by 2015, but it was affecting his ability to work, so maybe employment support allowance (ESA) could have been paid for a number of years, but that was more than £48 per week in 2013. It would have been much better for them financially if Tim qualified for a disability payment, if he needed Sally as his carer that would have provided an additional amount in carer's allowance.

Even with the diagnosis Tim was given, he would only have received a disability benefit, on the basis of how it was affecting him day to day. I find it interesting that SA's book was released on the 2nd June 2013. I have no doubt @WellSurely that everything was retrofitted for the book narrative.

2 June 2015?

It's interesting than in TSP SW claims the neurologist tells them that death for CBD sufferers normally occurs 6-8 years from onset "but yours seems to be very slow progressing as it's already been six years since you first presented with a problem". The implication is that the first signs of CBD were noticed in 2007 and that Moth could have only 2 years to live. This is also implied by the blurb on the back cover of TSP "With little left and little time, they impulsively decided to walk the 630-mile South West Coast Path"

However the June 2015 letter gives absolutely no indication of any prognosis about Moth's life expectancy other than the bland statement "Mr Walker's symptoms began 9 or 10 years ago" (ie 2005)

I made an error @NaughtyNoodler mistakes were made, of course I meant 2015, can't edit now, is that because it's been quoted?

A quick Google has informed me, there is a small window of opportunity in which to edit, five minutes after posting. I'm probably the only person who didn't know that :) but just incase anyone else tries dabbing at icons in a futile fashion, that's how it works :)

Now imagining you as having written Save the Cat!, @Vroomfondleswaistcoat.

Helen Hailey's praise for TSP and its sequels posted by @NaughtyNoodler is fascinating. I suppose this is the psychology of the Raynor Winn superfan, and why OWH may still be seen as a viable publication.

You get the impression that HH is mostly annoyed by 'the controversy' because it's delayed the publication of a book she was dying to read!

There are also RW fans besotted with the film adaptation of TSP, convinced that GA is a shoe-in for an Oscar! SW treading the red carpet in Hollywood, now that would be a thing!

I really like GA as an actress, but I thought it was quite an odd performance. (I saw the film before the CH story.) I mean, difficult, because there's so little script, and so many shots of silent walking or standing looking at landscape (and the frankly ludicrous one of the fluffy pedigree bunnies flocking around the tent!), but what I noticed most must have come from the director, surely, and it was that GA was so often shown walking on ahead by herself, with JI walking some way behind her, sometimes in visible difficulty.

I think if I hadn't read the book, I'd have thought that we see this so often suggested some kind of impatience with him, or a desire to be alone, or some kind of difficulty within the relationship (which would have made a certain kind of sense if the Cooper story were true and it was Moth's too-trusting nature that had cost them their home), but no, they're the world's most devoted couple in the memoir.

I suppose I thought she made 'RW' quite spiky and not the warm, fuzzy, relatable type that her most enthusiastic readers see her as...?

On the subject of working tax credit, I'm pretty sure there were requirements to inform the DWP of a change in address and circumstances. We know the former probably didn’t happen as SW has stated that their mail was forwarded and my guess is that going off on the SWCP counts as making yourself unavailable for work. Not sure the DWP looks to kindly on someone making themselves unavailable for work through their own fraudulent activity.

The DWP is notoriously leaky I wouldn't be too surprised is some journalist hasn't already looked into the Walker's benefit history. The subsequent miraculous recovery may be of some interest to the DWP as well.

Yes, it's amazing how Moth's miraculous suddenly clear scan came when they'd made enough money not to need to claim benefits any more, isn't it?

They should have notified the change in income/circumstances. Not doing so means they were now claiming fraudulently and they could face interview under caution and prosecution.

But as we all know, if you’re not charged then you didn’t steal anything.

Yes, and SW has already admitted in interviews (including the one with Sally Magnussen I think) that she thoroughly researched agents, specifically seeking out a woman and someone who would be most likely to buy into the themes of the story. SW knew what she needed to do.

Saint and Sinner?

Or, as I've hypothesised before, hoping for a diagnosis to get additional funding/support for the university degree.

Meanwhile, according to RW writing on this now archived PSPA webpage, TW only started to experience problems "around 2 years" before the 2013 diagnosis. Bit different to the symptoms starting in 2007.

The whole thing is worth a read - shared below.

web.archive.org/web/20250501010702/www.pspassociation.org.uk/information-and-support/living-with-psp-cbd/personal-experiences/raynor-and-moths-story/

Raynor and Moth’s Story
Raynor and Moth share details of their experience of CBD

In 2013, Raynor and Moth’s Winn’s life was turned upside down.

As well as losing their home, Moth was diagnosed with the little-known neurodegenerative condition, Corticobasal Degeneration (CBD).

Here, Raynor shares details of Moth’s diagnosis, the challenges they’ve faced and why they are supporting a step change in PSP & CBD research.

“It was easy to brush off Moth’s initial symptoms. He had a physical job so when he started experiencing pain and numbness in his left shoulder and arm, we thought it was a torn ligament or some sort of nerve damage.

“We trialed different therapies for around a year before things started to take a different turn. The loss of dexterity and development of a tremor, led to Moth being diagnosed with Parkinson’s, and we lived with that diagnosis for around a year. When the medication failed to make a difference, investigations were opened again.

“Moth received his CBD diagnosis in 2013. By that point he was 53 years old and had been experiencing problems for around two years.

“The explanation of the diagnosis was quite vague. The main thing that stuck in my mind about it was the fact there was no treatment and no cure.”

“It had already been a confusing journey. You settle your mind on a diagnosis and start to adapt and then you find out it was something else. Something you’d not heard of, which seemed difficult to plan for due to the very individual nature of how it can progress. So, we didn’t know what to expect at all. Moth didn’t want to know too much, rather focusing on the here and now, but I couldn’t stop googling the condition.”

“Physio exercises became a real focus, with Moth repeating the exercises several times a day, keen to improve and maintain his strength. At that time, it felt like it was the only thing he could do.

“As we began our coastal walk, Moth’s strength and mobility had deteriorated. The pain and numbness had moved down his left leg and into his foot, often the issues leading him to lean to the left and drag his foot. He also was struggling to raise his left arm so couldn’t get a coat or his rucksack on without help.

“What we noticed during our walk, was the regular movement did seem to have positive effects. Around 200 miles in, Moth noticed he didn’t need help with his rucksack anymore. He was also better on his feet, with his left foot dragging far less than it had.

“This is something we had to learn and work out for ourselves though. That’s the main frustration we’ve had throughout this journey. Feeling very alone due to the lack of awareness and understanding of CBD within the medical community. It feels unfair that you must be the expert, informing the professionals about the condition, what works and what doesn’t. Continually having to repeat what is wrong and how it affects Moth can be exhausting.”

“When we heard PSPA were looking to create a step change in research and awareness of PSP & CBD, we knew we had to get involved.

“The fact they want to change outcomes for people is really reassuring to us. From our own experience, which we know we are not alone in, we can see how developing a faster and accurate diagnosis can be a real gateway to support. This would ensure support is there for the individual and family, at the right time. Whether that be information, regular check-ups, physio or financial support.

“Establishing clear standards of care would also be a relief. We tended to lean more on the internet for answers than we did healthcare professionals. Often when we asked questions, we were met with blank faces which was heart-breaking.

“Investment in research is the real game changer here. It can help improve understanding of CBD and give answers and solutions to questions we’ve had for years. It can also give people insight into what they can do themselves to maintain their independence as long as possible."

Having seen RW at a book talk, I think she is quite spiky and tough. Guarded as Gillian commented.

@SimoArmo thanks for this interesting article. It linked to another page which says:

"Moth was diagnosed with CBD in 2013 whilst he and Raynor were walking the South West Coastal Path. Moth was just 53 years old, and the couple believed he had been experiencing problems for around two years prior to his diagnosis."

Oh, I think you’re right.

But GA was supposedly playing ‘Raynor Winn’ as she presents herself in TSP — not a ‘guarded’, highly-controlled individual, putting on a mask, repeating the same anecdotes, aware that she’s sitting on a tissue of lies, but a warm-hearted, trusting individual who’s lost everything overnight and is fanatically devoted to her dying husband. GA gives a much chillier performance than the RW of the book, I think.

Thank you @SimoArmo for posting that. It’s very interesting. There are more links to pages about the making of the film and the work they’ve done to support the charity.

You’re so right! It must have been a real challenge to portray her, believing that the woman on the page and one standing before her were one and the same but some inkling inside telling her that they weren’t. It must have been so puzzling. I think she portrayed her a lot closer to the knuckle than she initially realised! When I saw the film I remarked upon the fact that GA had played her as being more efficient and pulled together than the character in the book. Book Raynor is bursting at the seams with emotion that she confides to the reader. The director had to work on how to interpret the thoughts on the page visually, in a way that would make the audience feel the same way as “Raynor”… ie a subjective interpretation of the world around … and none of it felt right because it didn’t feel right in the book either when reading it… ie the shouting, swearing cafe owner, the “Yompers”, the family shrinking away from them while they had a cream tea and Raynor’s whole general attitude to the world and people in it which the reader may think is due to her internal misery. So, the result was an awkward attempt to make the audience sympathise with Raymoth and it seemed more suited to a Carry On film. The directions could very well have been “This looks and plays like farce but it’s true life”. Little did any of them know how wrong they were at their attempts to try and get it right. A new film definitely needs to be shot.

The article posted by Simo mentions how the actors and director worked very closely with the PSPA to ensure that the way the disease was presented on film was correct. It was arguably better presented on film by JI than by Tim in real life.

@simoarmo “Moth received his CBD diagnosis in 2013. By that point he was 53 years old and had been experiencing problems for around two years.

In TWS SW writes
We were walking the first time we’d realized that Moth had some kind of problem. Our twenty-fifth wedding anniversary. No big celebration, no noise or commotion, we hadn’t even told the kids which anniversary it was. It was a day just for us to be together, but we still felt we should do something to mark the moment.
‘Do you fancy walking up Tryfan? We’ve always wanted to but never given ourselves the time. Let’s do it today.’

Moth put the flask back into the daysack and handed it to me.
‘Can you carry this now? Don’t know what I’ve done to my shoulder, but it’s really aching today, I can’t seem to lift my arm properly.’
‘Isn’t it any better? Do you think it could have come from that fall through the barn roof in April?’

‘We should carry on. It’s going to get busy up here soon.’
‘Don’t know if I can. I feel dizzy. I can’t look down – I think I’m going to be sick.’

They married in 1986, so this would put it at 2011 and match up the timeline with the quote from@simoarmo , so occasionally she is consistent with what we believe to be altered timelines.

Being nitpicky, it also states later in TWS that Tim fell through the barn roof when he was in his forties (he was 51 when he fell through it in the earlier part of the book. You would think you would remember the date properly if your darling hubby did something like that!)

Yes, maybe it's the disjuncture between 'warm and heartfelt Raynor Winn on the page' and 'guarded Raynor Winn as GA met her in RL' that makes it such a peculiar performance.

I think part of my issue with the film was that I simply didn't believe for a second that the character as portrayed by GA would respond to losing her home and her husband's terminal diagnosis by hiding under the stairs from the bailiffs, having a completely left of field brainwave and dragging a supposedly dying man out on a famously challenging LD trail.

GA's Raynor Winn is more cerebral, rational and together -- it seemed far more likely that she'd have gone into ferociously efficient mode, organised council accommodation, got a job and pushed for the best medical treatment available for Moth, powering on through her own pain.

And absolutely yes to all of the small parts (fellow-hikers, fellow cream-tea eaters, dog-walkers) all feeling very strange indeed. They only make 'sense' in the book because they're viewed through the furious, self-righteous eyes of someone determined to regard the rest of the world in the worst possible light, compared to Our Underdog Heroes. On the screen they just look a bit mad, like they've just strayed in off the set of a completely different film.

The scene where the young couple watch JI struggle through a kissing gate and address him as SA is plain odd.

Being nitpicky, it also states later in TWS that Tim fell through the barn roof when he was in his forties (he was 51 when he fell through it in the earlier part of the book. You would think you would remember the date properly if your darling hubby did something like that!)

Especially if said barn was not just a leaky old shed on your land, but a building you'd worked on for years because you'd turned it into your main source of income by renovating it as a holiday let! Clearly TW can't have fallen through the roof of a functioning holiday let. It would have to have been when the renovation was at a fairly early stage, when there was only a partial roof or none.

But again, difficult to keep track of your own untruths!

Doesn't this article go against her assertations that 'I've never said walking was a cure for CBD/I've never said it was definitely CBD'? Here she very clearly does say that the exercise improved his condition and she leans very heavily into the 'we needed to find out everything we could about CBD'.

I can sort of understand the belief at the time that it was CBD that Moth was suffering from and that they conflated walking and recovery, but since this doesn't seem to be typical of CBD or Parkinsons, why not go back to the consultant at this point and show Moth's improvement and ask for another assessment? Since it was already known that CBD (and Parkinsons) are progressive, then either Moth is a medical miracle or it isn't CBD/Parkinsons.