Dd s boyfriend wants a pre nup .

[Velveteenrabbitt]

dd had been with her bf since uni - he has several investments and earns 85 k plus massive bonuses and his earnings will increase. She earns 32k

They are buying a house together and she is investing 30% of deposit , he 70% . Has he has more money.
They told me y day that he wants a pre nup when they get married.
I must admit I was very shocked as I assumed marriage to be a ‘ we situation’ and everything is shared as in the good and the bad - and why would money be the only thing not shared ?

I spoke to him about it as he told me that his mates just dont get it . He says that its because he has seen some married men lose their home And end up in rented if the couple split up and the man ends up worse off mostly, he wants to make sure that If anything happened its not like that .
The mortgage but also it will be not what i assumed in that it will be - joint ownership - but that he gives 70% contributions to deposit and mortgage payments, and she gives 30 % and that will be reflected too .

We are giving dd part of her deposit. The solicitor says that this is classed as a gift and is paid when the mortgage commences.

dd says that initially she was upset and insulted , but now she understands what he means she is ok with it .

I understand that she will need a solicitor for her part of the pre nup.?
I remain anxious about this - it does not feel normal ?

How can i address this with sensitivity with dd without isolating her from us ?

Ive said to him it needs to be fair and in the marriage would be uneasy if dd had to buy cheap clothes for eg and him with more income had much more spending money.. he said that - what people don't see is he does treat her - and he is generous- but again thats in his control .

He comes from quite a deprived background and I think part of this may be anxiety as he has worked very very hard .

I don't want to interfere , dd adult, but also our dd.I am aware we may need to tread carefully here am looking for balanced support and i want to stay measured about this and calm etc.

The thing I think is most unfair atm is the 60:40 split on bills. She’s earning less than half what he is, and the bill split should reflect that more closely (IMO). Otherwise she must really be feeling the pinch at the end of each month, whilst he’s busy topping up his reserves and not worrying about spends.

It IS sensible to ring-fence their respective deposits whilst they’re unmarried and I would strongly encourage my DCs to do something similar. But after marriage, (assuming the pre-nup was even enforceable), and post-kids?

I’d be having the same concerns that you are OP.

Hmmm… So wreck her income. I also wonder if she will be expected to be carers for his parents should they need it - after all he is the man on the bigger salary.

How will having children work?
She will take the hit no doubt as he increases his earning capacity.
This is not someone to trust having a child with.
They are not a team and she would be mad to consider marrying and having a family with someone like this.
Ultimately all you can do is advise her to be wary.
Is this a huge sacrifice for you to give this deposit to her?
If it is I would rethink it.
She could well end up caring for his parents and children, paying hugely towards bills whilst he builds wealth and his career.

It is a common theme on MN.
She would be living in poverty in his home, paying for her share of holidays.
It has financial abuse written all over it.

Pre-nups are not legally binding in the UK, but they can be taken into consideration.

I think his deposit should be protected, plus his ivestments. Good for him protecting himself. He pays the bills 60 -40 which is fair.

If they have children later and then divorce, he would be liable for maintenance, and if he is decent and on a good salary, he would pay the childcare.

As the daughters Mother stay out if this, make no comment, imagine how it would get if the PIL were to get involved and agreed with their son. I am team future son in law. Your daughter is an adult, she works and she is happy with the arrangement. She would get her deposit back, and get maintenance should they divorce and have children.

Exactly @PaterPower One of the main reasons he can afford to put in so much more is that she is paying way more of the bills than she should be.

OP I would not suggest DD gets legal advice. If she doesn’t then the prenup will not hold water. If her BF is so keen to have a prenup he needs to work out what needs to happen to make it valid.

Also there are already laws in place so he can protect his pre-existing assets. The marriage of short duration laws. Once a marriage is longer than this, it’s more than likely that one person in it has been financially disadvantaged by a decision made as a couple and they deserve to be compensated for that if the marriage ends.

his aim is to protect his wealth if things go wrong as he does not want to be made to leave his home

It will be her home too, and also the home of any future children, and it sounds like he'd be expecting them to leave. I understand protecting his share of the deposit, but beyond that it sounds like he is (perhaps understandably) entering into this with no notion of us/we. He might be better off having a lodger.

Agree with much of sentiment above. A pre-nup that protects pre-marital assets is fair enough. So the respective deposits, and possibly the investment at point of marriage.

However when you get married it should be a partnership, and they should consider finances together, especially if planning a family etc. If he's trying to ring fence a high proportion in perpetuity then the man clearly isn't ready for marriage.

Not sure why he thinks men always do worse, that smells like macho bullshit. He sounds a bit naive/entitled, not sure which.

And a prenuptial that became unfair later down the line could be challenged in court anyway.

I’d worry how earning potential and things go over a few years especially when kids come along. What seems fair when they’re early 20s no kids just starting out and what might be fair if he decides he wants a young pretty thing age 50 while she’s at home with the kids is very very different. I’d want to make sure that that’s all covered I’ve heard of prenups which take this into account I’ve also heard of ones that say we’re he to have an affair it’s invalidated. Good legal advice will cover a lot of this.

This ^ really. I bet if the roles were reversed and it was your dd who wanted the prenup , you'll be very pleased with how sensible she was!

You should ensure she and he are very very comfortable with the idea that men do not get families for free. If she stops work to have a baby, she should not be using her savings to pay living costs if the money coming in covers it, and the marriage should aim to pay into her pension/ national insurance points, otherwise he should expect to be contributing to nursery costs, and doing 50% of drop offs and pick ups, 50% of staying home with a sick child, shopping, cooking, cleaning, home organising, child related planning like party presents, swimming lessons and kids needing new clothes.

Sorry for not RTFT but prenups are becoming more and more common.They're a good thing, so long as your dd is well advised and one could protect her just as much as him long term. Far better to have all this ring fenced in advance than down the line during an emotional divorce. Any decent divorce lawyer will see she is well served.

Prenups aren’t binding in the UK by courts, it’s not remotely normal for a marriage. Protecting deposits is more usual in unmarried couples protected by a deed of trust.

I would require that a clause is written in, covering the eventualities below:

1. if dd’s dp asks to relocate to benefit the progress of his career and dd agrees, then the prenup is invaidated
2. if dd has to take pregnancy, miscarriage, adoption or maternity leave from work or if dd becomes a sahm then the prenup is invalidated
3. if the marriage lasts longer than 15 years then the prenup is invalidated
4. if dd’s dh dies during the marriage then all his assets shall be part of the pool of assets inheritable by his spouse (dd) regardless of the prenup

The reality is that once kids arrive your dd will be significantly economically disadvantaged by her childbearing and childraising and at this point I’d expect her dh to be “all in”.

I wonder why they are bothering with the marriage at all? Marriage is a legal contract and any pre-nup probably won't affect it. If they just want a big party, have a big party and move in together. Otherwise, take marriage seriously and realize that the consequences are that all property is jointly owned.

This.
I think if he wants to go down the route of marriage as a financial contract (which ultimately it is more than it is an excuse for a big party, or a romantic gesture) it is fair for OPs DD to put in her own counter terms, including pension contributions if she is SAHM or part time, and compensation for loss of future career development and earnings, also a clause that covers the issue of a possible disabled child, compensation if she misses career development opportunities in order to stay in the correct location for her DH more lucrative career. Conditions which will allow her to move with kids out of London/SE if living their is not financially viable for her on her single salary.
See how fair her partner likes it all then.

He sounds like the sort who would want her paying her share of the bills and morgage during maternity leave.
It is a common theme on MN with financially abusive and controlling men.
She would want to be very wary.
They are not a team.
Warn her that this is not a man to have a family with.
Women are too often spectacularly naive to how they bear the vast majority of the cost of children and end up the poorer for it.

This is absolutely fine while they are both in their chosen careers, no kids etc.

What are your daughters thoughts on it if they have kids? What are his thoughts on it?
Ask them what happens if they have a couple of kids and daughter gives up work/works part time around the kids, can't progress her career as well because of childcare responsibilities, and then they split when the kids are 10/15/20. What does the split look like then? Where do the kids live? Where does your daughter live?

What is the split of childcare costs if daughter wants to work full time after kids? Who has to make sure they leave work on time to pick the kids up? What happens if both need to travel for work/work late hours?

Who is paying for holidays and extras? Is daughter expected to contribute 30%/50% if she wants to take part in these extras, or does the 70/30 split only cover the house? What about a new kitchen? Does daughter need to find 30% for that?

What is the domestic/housework split like? Is he taking on 70% of that too? Or is daughter expected to do more as she pays less? Are they going 70/30 on bills? Or is the 70/30 only applicable when it financially benefits him?

I'd suggest marriage counselling to discuss this in depth before they even set a date.

My main concern here is where he's getting the idea that men end up worse off. Is it Andrew Tate stuff? Or does he just have a friend/uncle that had to move into rented accommodation post divorce?

Nothing wrong with protecting your assets, but you cant expect free labour from someone else to maintain/afford those assets.

I think its sensible to do this in a child-free relationship, but if they're planning kids I wouldn't be considering signing something like that.

What does he plan to do if say, for example, they divorce and have two young children whom DD has taken years off work to raise. Would he honestly expect her to have to move out, disrupt the children's stability, probably have to move area to a cheaper place that she could afford, go back to work full time to pay for her new place, while he gets to sit in his big house and nothing changes for him at all?

There are different ways to contribute to a marriage, not all of them financial. She will be doing her share if there are children to raise.

I have been married over 30 years and I have an iron clad pre-nuptial agreement. I live in a jurisdiction where they are enforced. I have never needed to use it but I just like the feeling of security of having my own money. My husband never objected - we own our house jointly now in equal shares - but my investments and inheritances are separate property as are his. Because of my job I can tell you many people who are divorcing turn into monsters who will prevent the sale of joint property, hide assets and lie unblushingly - no matter how nice they once seemed.

I think the prenuptial is fair enough (romantic no, pragmatic yes). Statistically marriages are more likely to fail than not.

BUT

Like PP have pointed out, they're not legally binding in the UK.

I would also think it crucial she visits a family solicitor to build in her financial safety and that of future children in the event of a divorce. Much better doing it like that than playing it by ear 15 years down the line.

I think it's different in the UK.

OP I live in a country where marriage contracts are very much the norm. We get different types of contracts as well, ones where you share assets after marriage, one where you don't and you have claim to everything yours before and during the marriage.

It is just the sensible thing to do, especially if one party already owns more than the other.

The comments saying how unromantic etc etc, are just very very naive. Financials in a marriage have to be considered.

As others have said it's sensible for him to try and protect his assets. Although 5 years is a long time to be in a relationship, it's also too short a time to have fully tested a relationship to the extremes in most cases. Therefore, taking a pragmatic approach is very sensible. As others have said finances moving forward and into family life also need to be clearly outlined.

Man that thinks that way is not a provider. She is not wise putting money in the house, she should invest it in her own property and rent it.

Its good the talk is well before the marriage, so she has time to think. Definately the best advice is to pay for a good solicitor that will explain to her implications of pre nup.