To not have known this about Naomi Campbell

[Steyning]

Look through the 5 photos!
A 17 year old Virginia is being glared at by Naomi in slude 2.
Look at her with Maxwell!!
Read through the comments section!
Did anyone know about this??

https://www.reddit.com/r/Epstein/comments/1oddf0h/naomicampbellwasafrequentguestatjeffrey/

Can you point me to something showing that Melinda hated Epstein? I'd be very impressed if this is true

No sorry, just working from what a PP said.

@TightlyLacedCorset
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/evil-personified-melinda-french-gates-old-interview-on-epstein-viral-as-doj-fbi-close-case/articleshow/122305937.cms

Melinda French Gates clearly states in an interview she did post divorce announcement with Gayle King, that she met Epstein and found him abhorrent and evil.

Its on YouTube and widely viewed.

Thanks posters above: I also found

"Melinda is said to have expressed unease at Bill’s relationship with Epstein since at least 2013. Her meeting with divorce lawyers in October 2019 is said to have taken place at roughly the same time as a New York Times article detailed Bill’s meetings with Epstein, which included an overnight stay at Epstein’s New York mansion"

A quote from a New York Times article. I was a bit sceptical, as retrospectively and in a bid to create distance, it would be tempting for anyone to say you found something off about Epstein. However it does seem to be true and she has expressed sorrow over his victims.

A very astute woman. I'm surprised being that outrageously rich didn't corrupt her morals.

You don't think using emotive terms helps and yet you accuse another woman of having a, "case of the vapours" for putting her viewpoint forward?

Crumbs.

That is awful but explains a lot.

No one looking out for her. How sad. Let down by so many people who should have protected her and kept her safe.

Why all the focus on these photos?

I thought Virginia stated that Epstein forced her to have sex with Naomi Campbell?

And if Virginia said that, I’m inclined to believe it.

Have I got this wrong?

Because really the photos are irrelevant. You can’t tell anything from that photo, she’s not glaring at VG.

But she’s not got a good character, and if VG claims she was forced to have sex with her, she’s a vile human being, regardless of these photos.

Well, yes, her and Epstein forced Virginia to have sex with her, did they not?

That makes her pretty awful imo.

That’s all very lovely but surrogacy doesn’t centre the baby. It’s all about thinking you have a right to parenthood and using money to buy a baby. That’s not emotive, it’s just a fact.

And it is different from sperm donation etc because this is a fully formed human being handed over. Studies show the babies experience trauma and distress when separated from the woman that carried them. It’s a deeply selfish act.

And all of that is without even considering what happens when it goes wrong - if the woman suffers illness while pregnant or the baby is born with a disability.

No one should have the right to put another person at risk. We don’t let other people sell other body parts even if they do “consent”. Pregnancy carries a risk and has long-term effects on the woman’s body. It doesn’t matter how many “tests” that are done in advance, paying to use another body as a vessel is deeply unethical.

Ever in the very rare cases that the surrogate isn’t doing it because she needs the money, it adds to the normalisation of commodifying a woman’s body. It has harmful effects beyond that one single case because it trickles downwards and increases the legitimacy of surrogacy as a practice which impacts those in poverty.

Renting another woman’s womb is morally repugnant on so many levels and for so many reasons - and therefore it’s hardly surprising that Naomi Campbell did it twice.

I’m afraid I don’t agree, I think what’s key is the baby is loved and well cared for. And I’d like to see any research that shows any baby is traumatised by being handed straight to their new mother, and again, I don’t beleive it’s buying a baby, you can keep writing it but you won’t change my mind, you’re paying someone to go through the pregnancy and child birth phase. Often it’s not even the surrogates egg.

Read The Primal Wound.

Utter nonsense. Dress it up however you like but it is buying a baby and it is evil.

This be honest I don't think race has anything to do with it. Bad people can be male or female, black or white, straight or gay. It's to do with the content of their character and not what they look like.

I haven’t read the book so didn’t know VG had been forced to have sex with Naomi Campbell, I thought we were talking about NC pointing at VG in a photo. In which case yes we can both think NC is abhorrent and wonder who were all the other high profile men who visited Epstein’s house to have sex with trafficked minors. I’d really like the know the latter.

The only source I could find for this claim that Virginia said she was forced to sleep with Naomi Campbell is Reddit.

Here's a quote from TIME magazine regarding the unsealed documents that were used as part of a suit against Ghislaine Maxwell:

"For the most part, the documents say little about the actions taken by individuals outside of Epstein, though there is a 2016 deposition from Johanna Sjoberg, one of Epstein’s victims, that mentions politicians and figureheads in the U.S. and abroad.
While celebrities like Bruce Willis, Cameron Diaz, Cate Blanchett, Kevin Spacey, Naomi Campbell, and Leonardo DiCaprio are also mentioned in the records, they have not been accused of helping Epstein in any capacity. Sjoberg was only asked if she had met the aforementioned people, which she denied"

Another quote from Arab News:

"In 2019, Campbell discussed her initial encounter with Epstein in 2001, saying: “Yes I knew him. I was introduced to him on my 31st birthday by my ex-boyfriend Flavio. He was always front and center at Victoria’s Secret shows.”
She continued by disclaiming any knowledge of Epstein’s sexual offenses, saying: “What he’s done is indefensible. And when I had heard what he had done, it sickened me to my stomach just like everybody else because I’ve had my fair share of sexual predators, and thank God I had people around me that protected me from this. Right now I stand with the victims.
“I find it extraordinary that of all the hundreds of thousands of people that I’ve stood next to, to take a picture at a public event, they’ve only chosen these few,” she added."

Finally from The Sun:

" 'Virginia Roberts, 36, who alleges she was forced to have sex with Prince Andrew three times, tweeted her fury at members of paedophile Epstein’s social circle.

She wrote: “You saw me at your parties, you saw me in Epstein’s homes, you saw me on the plane, you saw me get my haircut, you saw me on the streets, you watched me be abused. You saw me!
There is no suggestion the supermodel or her guests knew who Ms Roberts was – nor had any knowledge of Epstein’s behaviour.' "

So what I get from this is that like a great many celebrities Naomi Campbell was seen around Epstein and Ghislaine at the same time that one or other of Epstein's victims were there. Sometimes photos were taken and it is this that Virginia alludes to when she says 'You saw me'

But there's no proof they knew (although I find it hard to believe that they didn't at least think 'she's a young girl, how did she get in this venue, why is she with Ghislaine etc) that Virginia was being sex trafficked. I can't see the vain, capricious Naomi risking her career to be in something that dark. She might accept diamonds offered up to her by an admirer and not give a shit where they came from, and she might have a nasty temper, but I (personally) don't think that she is that stupid.

Thanks @TightlyLacedCorset - I was confused by the NC statement having not heard about it, so that makes sense.

I’ll revert to thinking that right now, I’d rather hear about who all these high profile men are who visited Epstein and had sex with trafficked girls.

Right... all Bill Gate's alleged affairs and his generally annoying personality, but affairs and being a git didn't count for much. The ONLY thing that happened or mattered in famous people's lives in 2000-2010 was their relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Sure. Right.

I'm putting it out there. Virginia Giuffre obviously lied about a lot of things. Doesn't mean she lied about crimes Epstein did. But she lied about A Lot of things.

@SeemedClear: according to VG's last book, her dad molested her for years from about the age of 8yo, and swapped her with another man's young daughter for sexual activity. All of which Sky Wells fervently denies. But you know, we aren't supposed to point out that a victim of sex crimes might also be an unreliable narrator.

Naomi Campbell did? If so of course that’s awful but it’s not there are people who are killing numerous people, children, etc

Pp is being overly dramatic

You’re paying someone to carry and birth a baby - that quite literally IS paying for a baby. Factually and objectively. Whether you attach a moral judgement to that is another point entirely but money is handed over in order to have a baby birthed. That is buying a baby. You might think that’s acceptable, and that’s your prerogative, but it’s not a matter of opinion about whether a baby is being purchased - because it is.

There’s plenty of research that suggests surrogate babies are well-cared for and loved - but you’re completely ignoring the trauma of the baby being separated from the woman it knows. Babies know your scent, heartbeat etc from being in the womb. It causes trauma to suddenly remove that which is why forced adoptions are handled so carefully. It’s been studied at length - it’s not in the best interests of the baby, and that should be what matters.

Personally I think no one has a right to a baby, and putting a baby through trauma and distress to suit your own life goals is pretty despicable. It doesn’t matter how loved the baby might be going forward, it doesn’t make it ok.

And none of that touches on the other points I raised about commodifying a woman’s body. Or the many surrogacy cases where the surrogate has sustained lifelong complications or where the baby is born with a birth injury or disabled and is then rejected by the commissioning parents.

The whole thing is an absolute shitshow but it’s very easy to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore all the very valid objections “because the baby will be loved”.

As you quite rightly say, we’re never going to agree on this.

And I judge Naomi Campbell for using surrogates - yet another example of a wealthy woman thinking they can pay to use another woman’s body.