Don't have kids you can't afford!

[user793847984375948]

Hi all, this is meant to be an interesting discussion.

I keep seeing people say, “Don’t have kids if you can’t afford them.”

But in the UK, if someone works full-time on minimum wage, the state ends up paying thousands for childcare so that parent can work.
If that same parent stayed home, they would receive less support overall, yet they would be raising their own child hands-on. A single mum can work part-time and get rent and living costs for kids, around 500 a month in support if she works.

Nursery is about 1K a month usually. Then there's the wraparound care before and after school that could also be funded by UC.

So why is one scenario seen as responsible and the other as “sponging”?

Further, do people who say “don’t have kids you can’t afford” actually think only those earning £60k or more should have children, since that is roughly what it takes to cover childcare or a single income? That eradicates the above two scenarios and it's just those with independent wealth

If so, what would that mean for society long-term, both economically and socially? There would be fewer poor people over all and I think this would have an impact on our monetary system and menial jobs getting done.

And if you believe that only the wealthy should reproduce, you are effectively asking rich, white, powerful men to police women’s reproduction.
That is exactly what is happening in parts of America right now.

Genuinely curious how people justify this way of thinking.

How about two parents, one works 9-5, the other evenings. No childcare needed between 1yo and 4yo.
Or two parents with helpful grandparents
Or two parents cover the cost of a nursery place between them
Or two parents save up in advance, to cover the expensive childcare years.

Or I did lone parent who has one child, and I worked my arse off to cover all childcare costs myself, with the help of the govt tax-rebate scheme. I have kept a death grip on my spending for the last 17 years so ds has everything he needs and I haven't needed to claim benefits. It can be done. Nearly there 😊

you're assuming those not having children would need to rely on the state if they did have them…..

The reality is that it’s the people who don’t rely on the state who are having less children.

I believe that the groups where rates are falling most is middle earners, not because they are choosing not to have any children but because they are choosing only 1 child, due to higher costs of living.

In lower socioeconomic groups birth rates are fairly static and in some demographics (under 20 year olds) there have even been increases. A 19 year old is not supporting a child themselves are they?

Didn’t your parents teach you about earning and taxation?? Mine did.

Exactly. The least fit are the ones doing the most reproducing. Because they’re selfish and undisciplined. To the detriment of everyone else.

Don't want to be nasty but for me having children as a single mother on benefits has never been the choice, or regarded as a choice at all. I waited and waited until I met a man with reasonably humble but decent income, we married, I was home stay mum, no benefits, no paying for child care, nothing. I restarted work when the child was old enough

My neighbours raised two boys without ever paying a single £ in childcare by deliberately seeking jobs on opposite shifts BEFORE TTC.

because they didn’t want to be drains on society.

We all aspire to perfection yet so few reach it. We must Stop Doing Life Wrong.

Where are you getting the "she knew everything about the world" from?

I don't think the most basic understanding of where money comes from is akin to knowing "everything", is it.

So never mind that, you were never young, dumb and in love? Thinking a baby was a good idea and wouldn’t bother anyone else? Didn’t realise benefits came from other people’s taxes or when you conceived didn’t even know about benefits because you thought your boyfriend could just get a job at 16 and support the family?

You really dislike people forever because they were once young dumb and in love?

Why does Hungary do that? And not just Hungary. What's the problem with the UK, are we so much poorer than countries that are not even European powerhouses yet apparently can still afford paying 5 years salaries to women who decide to have children?

Having any consideration for people outside of yourself completely escapes you doesn't it? It's absolutely impossible to you that another teenage girl did not have a thorough education of her menstrual cycle in the 80s nor did she have multiple forms of contraception available to her as a teenage girl back then. Nevermind as well that women, but especially young girls, suffer really high rates of sexual assault and abuse and coercion because of course not a single unintended pregnancy has ever occured through an unconsensual encounter of course. Nah those women deserve to get dehumanised as stray animals. A chimp could have more levels of kindness than empathy than you.

I’ve just explained that a well off family who have already have kids can’t plan for all circumstances in this life. It’s possible to work your whole life, have savings and still have them all wiped out. Look at Northern Rock, look at what happened to the BHS pensions. Those people had thought themselves prudent having savings in the back and in their pensions. Look at all the hard work postmaster who lost it all due to a software glitch.

There is almost no one who is exempt from misery and needing to use the welfare state one day. That being the case, that the person with nothing who has a child can end up in the same place as the person with savings and a pension, then the only reason to suggest that one has a right to children and not the other (you claim no one has a right but you clearly think some have more right then others) must be based on a judgment of who is worthy of having a child which is ultimately a matter of social engineering.

All teenagers should be middle aged, degree educated and fully conversant with UK tax regulations.

She said she’d dislike someone because they had a baby at 16. The only valid reason for it to bother anyone is benefits coming from other people’s taxes but did you know that when you were in secondary school? Can you really not see how batshit it is to dislike someone forever because of that?

Barely any men (barely anyone full stop) can afford to run two households these days, so I don’t think everything can be blamed on missing dads. I wouldn’t have kids if I didn’t think I could support them myself if it came to it. I didn’t even have pets until I bought my first home.

Wow. You've jumped the shark with that one!

I can't speak for the poster you quoted, but like fuck was I ever:

"Young, dumb and in love? Thinking a baby was a good idea and wouldn’t bother anyone else? Didn’t realise benefits came from other people’s taxes or when you conceived didn’t even know about benefits because you thought your boyfriend could just get a job at 16 and support the family?"

Fucking hell..!

Can I ask - do you have children? Because your comments are giving the same energy of those without children who know exactly how everyone else should be raising theirs.

The taxpayer shouldn’t have to endlessly pay to support someone’s choice to follow patriarchal superstition.

Let their church or cult support the children if it’s going to demand that women produce them.

"European powerhouses" er we aren't in the EU! Europe is barely a powerhouse seeing as the dynamics have shifted east to China/US/India.

Leaving childcare to the church has worked so well in the past.

Ok but would you really dislike someone because of that? It’s not like they committed a crime?

I come from another country. The salaries were never high enough....do you expect whole continents to stop pro-creating because there is never enough good salaries going round? If you guys stops pro-creating then the men on the boats will be a fair catch for the women who want to procreate money or not

I do, I think it’s abhorrent that men are allowed to get away with this!

Hope you are enjoying the show OP you created.

Except you're advocating just the other side of the coin by demanding they take medication against their consent or have terminations they don't want. All because you never had an accidental or unintended pregnancy so that means they never ever occur 🙄