Don't have kids you can't afford!

[user793847984375948]

Hi all, this is meant to be an interesting discussion.

I keep seeing people say, “Don’t have kids if you can’t afford them.”

But in the UK, if someone works full-time on minimum wage, the state ends up paying thousands for childcare so that parent can work.
If that same parent stayed home, they would receive less support overall, yet they would be raising their own child hands-on. A single mum can work part-time and get rent and living costs for kids, around 500 a month in support if she works.

Nursery is about 1K a month usually. Then there's the wraparound care before and after school that could also be funded by UC.

So why is one scenario seen as responsible and the other as “sponging”?

Further, do people who say “don’t have kids you can’t afford” actually think only those earning £60k or more should have children, since that is roughly what it takes to cover childcare or a single income? That eradicates the above two scenarios and it's just those with independent wealth

If so, what would that mean for society long-term, both economically and socially? There would be fewer poor people over all and I think this would have an impact on our monetary system and menial jobs getting done.

And if you believe that only the wealthy should reproduce, you are effectively asking rich, white, powerful men to police women’s reproduction.
That is exactly what is happening in parts of America right now.

Genuinely curious how people justify this way of thinking.

Can I just say that your post would be easier to read with paragraphs.

How many people are in that situation though? To never ever work from 16 to retirement age?
Also, when it comes to “betterment “ is there a timeline? A certain threshold for earnings? Where their existence, or their children’s existence, becomes acceptable?

That's just trying to solve a problem parents created in the first place. If you don't birth babies you don't get future old people. At least we won't have any kids that need looking after in 80 years time keeping the population at 69 million (or far more by then) because we need to keep churning babies out just to provide future care.

@GagMeWithASpoon very aware of all this - as I’ve said on many other threads a big issue with the UK is the sheer volume of people needing to be taking out the system overall as opposed to putting in and this is I feel mainly due to costs - I’ve mentioned before about when we lived in Copenhagen - very affordable subsidised childcare ( and not with loads of catches and across the board income wise- around £325 a month even for infants) - on top of this they then have far more good quality social housing, no NI, no council tax, - higher tax generally though - but far far more’covered off’ - consequently most people work next to full time, even mums with young children but there’s a lot of 8.15 to 4.30 jobs - consequently far fewer people need subsidies constantly or actively choose not to work - similar system in Sweden, Netherlands, Germany -I think the UK has it totally arse about face and has for many years- it’s not just ‘now’ it’s been like this for years and years . I don’t actually blame many lower income people making the choices they do ( although I wouldn’t carry on having loads of kids as per the point of this thread) I blame a system that has made it that due to costs involved and lack of much structural support- work doesn’t pay unless you live in a very cheap area and are 2 adult people on average wages plus or live in a better area and are very well paid with lower childcare costs or the luck of having a smaller mortgage/rent.

I don’t think plenty of people getting UC whether working or not realise the sheer costs involved of childcare and average rents/mortgages in some of the country but getting no help whatsoever - there are a lot of £100k earning couples ( family income) who by the time they pay out childcare, after school, mortgages and rents for often very modest homes who after all taxes and costs effectively have little more disposable income than someone on £35k and getting help with rent/childcare costs , possibly maintanance on top ( and not counted) etc - it’s a ridiculous situation

The opposite is also true though. Many posters on here seem to think people who claim benefits are the feckless “bad back” or “single mum of 7 with two council houses” living the life of Reilly with barely working , or not working at all.

In reality, most people struggle at both ends , it’s just the struggles present differently.

Someone at DD’s school worked as a cleaner for years when her youngest was little , topped up by benefits. When he got to ks2, she became a TA , now she’s studying to become an HLTA. There is betterment, there is advancement, just not good enough for most people on this thread. How could it be, when an NHS nurse is also seen as feckless and irresponsible? I know a few people/families in that situation, it just took them longer to become “worthy”.

@GagMeWithASpoon oh I don’t disagree on that too - the fact is some people are never going to be£45k a year plus earners so that has to be factored in without everyone looking down on them who earns a bit better - and my view is that we need to be looking at getting costs down for low and average earners so partly we need to subsidise less and partly as an incentive to actually put yourself in a more positive position and it make sense financially - same is true at the higher end of earnings — lots of £85k family income earners might feel a bit less aggrieved and a bit better off if they were getting £650 a month childcare absolute max ( for 2) and if house prices dropped a fair bit

someone needs ..........

Strawberry Cheesecake
▢16 oz strawberries
▢1 cup white granulated sugar
▢1 tsp vanilla
▢1 tbsp fresh lemon juice
▢2 tbsp cornstarch
▢2 tbsp cold water
Crust:
▢1 1/2 cups graham cracker crumbs
▢1/4 cup brown sugar
▢4 tbsp salted butter melted
▢1 tsp vanilla extract
Cheesecake Filling:
▢32 oz cream cheese softened
▢1 cup white granulated sugar
▢3 eggs room temperature
▢1/2 cup heavy whipping cream
▢1/2 cup sour cream
▢2 tsp vanilla extract
▢2 tbsp cornstarch

How I see it, there should be responsibility on the individual level and there should be help on familiar level if help is needed. Unfortunately often in the UK these two fundamental things are missing and people rely on the state instead. This was not an issue when the UK was a wealthy country, but it’s just not any more, so people need to find their way back to self reliance and to times when family links were strong and family members helped each other out.

apply fresh Strawberry Cheesecake to the affected area and relax

How do we break the cycle of young women with possibly limited self esteem and education deciding to form relationships with unsuitable possibly abusive men and having children? I think a lot of the problem lies here and it is these women after the man invariably disappears (or is thrown out) are the ones whose children are in poverty.

I think many of us read about child poverty and are aware of charities like children in need but do have concerns that child poverty to a significant extent is brought about the life choices of women (and men) and would like to see disinsentives for people to have children without thought or regard for finance.

It is the squeezed middle that take on the burden of taxation to support such things as UC, free school meals etc. so I think they have very much an entitlement to have their say about the choices of others when they are asked to foot the bill.

There is a left wing outcry about the two child benefit cap but isn't it reasonable to ask why women already in poverty would decide on a third of more child? Is it to try and keep a man of to fulfil feelings of being needed? Do women expect the state to fiance the perceived right of motherhood as being a compassionate society we don't like seeing children suffer?

Definitely less than people who can afford to stay at home their entire life and be paid by government.

@mids2019 I’m a centre left voter and I agree with you - personally I think we need to concentrate on having a lot more good quality social housing, for singles as well as families, so women don’t feel the need as much to rush into live in crap relationships purely for financial reasons, I think we need lots of good very affordable childcare to make it easier for women to work with children and we need to stop the mindset that staying at home and claiming off the state is a long term lifestyle choice ( for some) -

How do we break the cycle of young women with possibly limited self esteem and education deciding to form relationships with unsuitable possibly abusive men and having children? I think a lot of the problem lies here and it is these women after the man invariably disappears (or is thrown out) are the ones whose children are in poverty

Tripe. Utter tripe. Shit happens to anyone. Men of all education and social standing can be abusive and unsuitable as fathers. These same men of all social standing abandon children either financially or both physically and financially. Many are actively supported to do so by the women in their lives. Women of all education and social standing fall for these men. Happened to me: Masters degree, career, speak several languages, spent years living across the world. Ex was great until he wasn’t. I’d been with him 6 years before getting pregnant. In fact, in keeping with domestic abuse patterns, it was the pregnancy that seemed to trigger his darker side that until that point had been hidden. So all I can say is ODFOD with your ‘choice’. I did not choose what happened to me and my children. The choice was entirely that of my ex. I have worked hard, claimed what I was entitled to and brought up 3 great young people. Poor outcomes are not inevitable. Benefits, childcare support, a grandparent with ready cash,all played their part. Support for women left holding the baby rather than this constant ridicule about choices is what we’re need. No one chooses to be treated like shit.

But you say your first pregnancy “triggered his dark side” yet you chose to have three kids by him? It’s this sort of choice that mystifies so many of us.

Agree, we need far more social housing, as you say for singles/childfree, too, to prevent some of these scenarios.

Also I would argue multigenerational setups in social housing, with annexe for downsizing grandparents, for example, who want to live adjacent & help with childcare. Or homes with multiple bedroom suites arranged around a central kitchen/lounge area, where two single mums could share and support one another.

Creative housing instead of separate homes for everyone.

how much tho? an hour a day?

did I choose? really? you know all about abuse and the shit that goes on, what women fear if they walk away - inability to cope financially, loss of children, self esteem in tatters etc. etc etc.? You know for a fact I was never raped? You know for a fact that he never went through the house looking for contraception? You live in your lovely bubble. Not everyone has the luxury of a lovely bubble. In fact, it is a fucking miracle that some of us get out alive and that we are in a position to pick up and start again. But all people see is bad choices. Try and think a bit harder, eh?

The reality is that educated people are having only the kids they can afford. Unless you are irresponsible and cruel you wouldn’t put your own child into hardship knowing you can’t afford to have children. This is why the rates of birth are falling to have either only one or none at all in countries like the U.K.

OP you seem to be getting quite distressed about this.

May I gently suggest you avail yourself of some counselling ?

This happened to my mum. She ended up with seven of us.

@No5ChalksRoad I don’t disagree although I doubt many would go for parents living with them unless being very honest their was some kind of personal benefit to be gained or from a culture that ‘it’s the norm’ - lots of us gave parents who we might care about but would not be ideal on the doorstep or respect boundaries.

So true, recall a 4 yr old telling me that her dad didn't want to go to work today I said ' oh dear is he not well?" She replied "no he just didn't want to go (to work" I relpied, "he will need to go to work otherwise he won't have any money" she said "no, he ll go to the social, they will give him some!"

Was it morning when you woke up?

Really? Because no-one calls it social security anymore they haven't done since the 70s

Yeah I do 🤨 do you have a problem with that?